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Head and Arm
02-26-2009, 04:10 PM
I would have to say this honor goes to either Scott Schatzman of Parkway Central or TJ Hill of Farmington. Who do you think?

preceptor
02-26-2009, 04:30 PM
Sam Henson

oxman
02-26-2009, 04:36 PM
It depends upon your point of reference.....
If it is HIGH SCHOOL only, then those two must be in the Top-5.
Are you considering the best year in high school or a 4-year career of consistency?
Are you considering college and world level freestyle and greco?
Schatzman won BOTH Freestyle and Greco at Fargo Juniors, plus going undefeated for 4 years.
TJ won numerous national titles while in high school, plus NCAA placer.
Sammie Henson was a two-time NCAA D-1 champ, plus a world champ, and an olympic silver medalist.
Shaun Fry was a 4-time State champ, plus a multiple year NCAA D-1 All-American.
Purlers were high school champs, Fargo champs, NCAA AAs, World level placers....
Spencer Mango was State champ, World level placer, plus an Olympian...

My pick would be Sammie Henson......
If it was high school only, I would pick TJ Hill.
Single season dominance, you would have to consider Scott Barker and Dustin Brewer their senior seasons.
8)

easternwrestler
02-26-2009, 04:44 PM
It depends upon your point of reference.....
If it is HIGH SCHOOL only, then those two must be in the Top-5.
Are you considering the best year in high school or a 4-year career of consistency?
Are you considering college and world level freestyle and greco?
Schatzman won BOTH Freestyle and Greco at Fargo Juniors, plus going undefeated for 4 years.
TJ won numerous national titles while in high school, plus NCAA placer.
Sammie Henson was a two-time NCAA D-1 champ, plus a world champ, and an olympic silver medalist.
Shaun Fry was a 4-time State champ, plus a multiple year NCAA D-1 All-American.
Purlers were high school champs, Fargo champs, NCAA AAs, World level placers....
Spencer Mango was State champ, World level placer, plus an Olympian...

My pick would be Sammie Henson......
If it was high school only, I would pick TJ Hill.
Single season dominance, you would have to consider Scott Barker and Dustin Brewer their senior seasons.
8)

I agree with all of this except, if you were basing it on high school, why not a Double national Champ, not to mention undefeated in High School?

Scott Schatzman was the best HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLER.
Sam Henson has the best accomplishments from there.

wstlrfreak
02-26-2009, 04:48 PM
Not saying this guy was the best wrestler from missouri, but what was the guys name from hazelwood central who was not even scored on his senior year?

riptide
02-26-2009, 05:00 PM
Tony Doerr had no offensive points scored on him his senior year

oxman
02-26-2009, 05:03 PM
I agree with all of this except, if you were basing it on high school, why not a Double national Champ, not to mention undefeated in High School?
Scott Schatzman was the best HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLER.
Sam Henson has the best accomplishments from there.I have no problem with choosing Schatzman as the best high wrestler....at all.
However......
TJ Hill was ALSO a double national champ at Fargo....THREE times.....
He was selected Outstanding Wrestler at Fargo.....more than once.....maybe three times....???
He ended up with ABOUT 10 Cadet and Junior National titles.TJ placed in the Junior Worlds while in high school.
TJ won University Nationals while in HIGH SCHOOL.
Schatzman won several very close matches at Fargo, whole TJ generally just teched out everyone.
Sammie Henson was also a Fargo Champion.
TJ was the most dominate high school wrestler that I have seen, especially for his last 3 years.
Again, I have no problem with Schatzman as the choice. It was hard for me to choose.
8)

Thfzn
02-26-2009, 05:08 PM
149 - 0 kind of says it all.

I seen alot wrestlers over the years and while in high school, Scott Schatzman was the best, he was rarely even pushed and when he was it was when he was a 9th and 10th grader. Scott pinned or teched every opponent his senior year.

The Most accomplished and best post high school wrestler would be Olympic Silver Medalist Sam Henson, who also won a World Championship, finished 3rd in the Worlds at the age of 35, and was a two-time NCAA Champion.

I'm sorry but you really can't bring too many other names into the conversation. TJ Hill was nearly as dominate as Schatzman after his freshman year in high school, but since TJ only wrestled one year of college it hard to measure him up against either Sam or Scott (a three-time AA at Northwestern, where he graduated with a degree in pre-law). The only other name that can even be brought up in the conversation at this point is Tony Purler, because Tony was a US world team member and NCAA champion.

That is my list, and I'm sorry OX, but outside of those names the conversation is over.

al harrington
02-26-2009, 05:30 PM
Shaun Fry was a 4-time State champ, plus a multiple year NCAA D-1 All-American.


Shaon's little brother, Brett, was a 4x'er

oxman
02-26-2009, 05:35 PM
Again, Ted, you have redefined the discussion.
I accepted the premise that ONLY high school was being considered. That was the context of my response.
So, therefore any discussion of NCAA or Olympics would be not be allowed.
If so, again, I would choose Sammie Henson.
If it is ONLY HIGH SCHOOL, then that would be a DIFFERENT discussion, which I would go with TJ,
however it would be very close with Schatzman as my second choice, depending on the criteria used.
TJs many National titles and success in the World events while in high school was impressive.
When the NCAA got rid of 118 just before TJ got there, it really hurt him.
He was a very small 125 pounder....He probably could have made 114.5(maybe 105.5), which were the World
Olympic weights until about 15 years ago. Again, I have no problem with Schatzman as #1, it was a very close
choice for me. But, if college and Olympics are considered, then Schatzman loses out to Henson, in my opinion.
I agree that 149-0 is tough to argue with. If that is the only way to rate a wrestler, then the discussion is over.
However, I feel that National titles and World performance while in high school are also important.
Depending on the rules of discussion, which have NOT been explained are determined to this point, it seems
unfair to rule out the opinions of others. I welcome them without condemning them, otherwise why have the
discussion, by declaring it over before it even begins. A mind is a terrible thing to waste... :)
8)

wstlrfreak
02-26-2009, 05:40 PM
Tony Doerr had no offensive points scored on him his senior year
What did he end up doing with his career?

Head and Arm
02-26-2009, 06:28 PM
I reason why I didn't put any rules on this discussion is because I wanted all this bickering, lol.

oxman
02-26-2009, 06:41 PM
I reason why I didn't put any rules on this discussion is because I wanted all this bickering, lol.You are a....genius!!!!!
Bickering, arguing, discussing....on a discussion board.....What a concept!!!.... =D>
8)

Greg
02-26-2009, 07:37 PM
Oxman I agree with you that it depends on how you define this question. If it is just best ever, then it has to be who went the furthest and that I believe would be Henson. It also depends on what style you are talking about...for instance I believe Spenser Mango would have to be considered the best Missouri Greco wrestler ever unless there is another Missouri Greco Olympian of whom I am not aware.

I think better questions (categories) would be:

Best High School Wrestler-Folkstyle
Best High School Wrestler-Freestyle
Best High School Wrestler-Greco
Best NCAA Wrestler (Folkstyle)
Best Post High School Freestyle Wrestler
Best Post High School Greco Wrestler

Additional Categories to be considered:
Best NAIA Wrestler
Best DivII Wrestler
And if you want to really get wacky you could add categories for pre-high school, although that one I think would really be hard to define (USA Triple Crowns, Tulsa Nationals, etc.?)

Greg
02-26-2009, 07:44 PM
I am curious to know who from Missouri have been Olympians, who have been Olympic Medalists, who have been NCAA champions, and who (I know probably a long list) have been NCAA All-Americans. I also wouldn't mind knowing about NAIA and DII National Champs/All-Americans.

Maybe Jonathon could start a sort of Hall of Fame (just a listing) on this site for post high school All-American (and above) achievers.

oxman
02-26-2009, 08:08 PM
Greg---Very good points and ideas.

In my memory....not perfect....
Spencer Mango is Missouri's only Greco Olympian.
Sam Henson is Missouri's only Freestyle Olympian.
Sam Henson is Missouri's only Olympic medalist(silver).
Tony Purler and Sam Henson are Missouri's only NCAA D-1 Champs.
8)

mutiger
02-26-2009, 10:52 PM
Tony Doerr went on to wrestle for the Navy in Greco. Last I heard he was going to wrestle for LU, but not sure that it ever panned out. He gets my vote for best ever season

wrestlefan19
02-26-2009, 11:52 PM
Ted Hickey..End of discussion
Ok Ok..maybe Jarret Tindal

Thfzn
02-27-2009, 06:42 AM
Sam Henson finished 3rd in the Olympic Trials for Greco-Roman while a High School Junior.

Too bad TJ Hill couldn't have finished out his college career, we might have a better idea how he would stack up post-high school.

Greg,

I'll get Northco to make you up a list, I'm sure he could tell you off the top of his head.

Greg
02-27-2009, 06:53 AM
Thanks. I would be very interested to see it. It is easy to find all the high school champions/records etc. but it is harder to find out past college achievers.

Louden
02-27-2009, 06:59 AM
It depends upon your point of reference.....
If it is HIGH SCHOOL only, then those two must be in the Top-5.
Are you considering the best year in high school or a 4-year career of consistency?
Are you considering college and world level freestyle and greco?
Schatzman won BOTH Freestyle and Greco at Fargo Juniors, plus going undefeated for 4 years.
TJ won numerous national titles while in high school, plus NCAA placer.
Sammie Henson was a two-time NCAA D-1 champ, plus a world champ, and an olympic silver medalist.
Shaun Fry was a 4-time State champ, plus a multiple year NCAA D-1 All-American.
Purlers were high school champs, Fargo champs, NCAA AAs, World level placers....
Spencer Mango was State champ, World level placer, plus an Olympian...

My pick would be Sammie Henson......
If it was high school only, I would pick TJ Hill.
Single season dominance, you would have to consider Scott Barker and Dustin Brewer their senior seasons.
8)

Well said.

Post High School: Sammie Henson

High School: Scott Schatzman or TJ Hill.

Scott was undefeated all 4 years and very dominant. On paper he is superior to TJ who lost a couple times as a freshman but still won 4 times. However watching TJ was something else, jap wizzering people in the State Finals and such. I don't think an offensive point was scored on him for the last couple years.

Single Season: I don't have a memory bank that digs as far back as many here, but I would pick Scott Barker as a senior. He absolutely toyed with some very very tough opponants. Not just from Missour but from Illinois. Some kid who took 3rd in State at Illinois (infinitely tougher to do than Missouri) and he had that kid crawling off the mat to get away from him.

Louden
02-27-2009, 07:01 AM
Tony Doerr had no offensive points scored on him his senior year

I recall that, but I wouldn't nominate him for best high school wrestler. He won the match against the kid who took 3rd in illinois by a close referee call on a takedown. Did he place at Senior Nationals? I know Barker pinned his guy in the finals of Senior Nationals in like 22 seconds.

Louden
02-27-2009, 07:06 AM
Oh, the kid that took 3rd in Illinois that was crawling on the mat to get away from Barker was Joe Bevis.

Bruce Winckel
02-27-2009, 08:10 AM
Ox, your memory is incredible.
For Highschool ,my vote would go to Schatzman. But T.J was more fun to watch.

stein
02-27-2009, 08:17 AM
Oh, the kid that took 3rd in Illinois that was crawling on the mat to get away from Barker was Joe Bevis.

Remember though that Bevis was not properly motivated, as his best friend and long time drill partner Butthead was out injured.

high school only: Schatzman
Entire wrestling career: Henson (took a few beatings from him personally. Ouch)

On another note, IMO Ryan Mango is much farther along at this point than Spencer was. Scary.

Louden
02-27-2009, 08:21 AM
Oh, the kid that took 3rd in Illinois that was crawling on the mat to get away from Barker was Joe Bevis.

Remember though that Bevis was not properly motivated, as his best friend and long time drill partner Butthead was out injured.

Nice!

Joe Bevis had a rep in Illinois as a very rough and physical wrestler. He really wore down and beat up practically everyone he wrestled. Against Barker he looked like a boy wrestling a man. He was battered, roughed up, and broken down. People on Bevis's own team were cheering for Barker.

Kevin Stroh
02-27-2009, 08:32 AM
Not to take anything away from barker but he only beat watson from Howell like 14 to 11 in the state finals and Steve had wrestled for exactly 14 months, and didn't wrestle during the off season so he had only 5 months of wrestling expirence, not a knock on barker as more of a praise to barker I think i would rank Deron's senior year pretty high on single year best

Louden
02-27-2009, 08:43 AM
Not to take anything away from barker but he only beat watson from Howell like 14 to 11 in the state finals and Steve had wrestled for exactly 14 months, and didn't wrestle during the off season so he had only 5 months of wrestling expirence, not a knock on barker as more of a praise to barker I think i would rank Deron's senior year pretty high on single year best


That is a misrepresentation of the facts.

A) Barker was a small 189 lber that went up to 215 to help out his team and seek a challenge.
B) 215 was unbelieveably stacked that year. A 3X State Medalist at 215 his whole HS career didn't place in it as a senior because it was so stacked.
C) Watson was the kind of athlete that comes around every great once and awhile. He was a brick Sh!thouse with great speed, balance, and a tremendous work ethic. He himself beat multiple medalists to make it to the finals.
D) This was before the watering down that took place from 3 classes to 4 classes such as when Deron did it.

Deron Winn had an amazing year but I don't think his field was quite as deep as Barkers was. Probably not even close.

Warren Haynes
02-27-2009, 08:45 AM
I was there for that Bevis and Barker match, and holy crap what a beating. Bevis at one point was in the fetal position. Scott more than once had to "coax" him into wrestling some more. Scotty had a great year that year. He beat Michael Cooper (Oak Park) pretty convincingly at Lee's Summit, beat Bevis at GC, and pinned Ray Goodson of Jackson (who would be an undefeated state champ the next year) in around 30 seconds in the district final.

preceptor
02-27-2009, 08:47 AM
Barker is over rated. He was not that good.

Kevin Stroh
02-27-2009, 09:01 AM
don't take it as if i'm taking a shot at barker he was very good his senior year but don't matter what kind of speciman watson was you don't beat a 2nd year wrestler by 3 points and say he wasthe most dominant i believe he even got taken down a couple times in the match, I believe Henson had a pretty dominant senior year in which he pinned or teched everyone if i recall right, he may of had a 19 to 6 match with ives I don't remeber for sure northco would probably know

Thfzn
02-27-2009, 09:12 AM
Kevin,

Good point about the Barker/Watson match. I remember sitting in the stands thinking Watson could pull if off, Dwight nearly worked a miracle with that kid.

Henson did not tech Ives, nor did he tech my former teamate Tim Bowman, who he majored in our dual meet, I remember the night well as we defeated Howell for the first time, Sammie not getting pin points was huge.

Vanilla Gorilla
02-27-2009, 09:41 AM
I remember the first time I ever saw TJ lose. It was in Fargo in his senior year I believe. I was almost depressed watching that happen.

Head and Arm
02-27-2009, 09:42 AM
What high schools did all these guys go to? I know that Schatzman went to Parkway Central and that Hill went to Farmington but what about the others?

Louden
02-27-2009, 09:44 AM
don't take it as if i'm taking a shot at barker he was very good his senior year but don't matter what kind of speciman watson was you don't beat a 2nd year wrestler by 3 points and say he wasthe most dominant i believe he even got taken down a couple times in the match, I believe Henson had a pretty dominant senior year in which he pinned or teched everyone if i recall right, he may of had a 19 to 6 match with ives I don't remeber for sure northco would probably know

Your point is noted, I just don't think it is a very good representation of how good Steve Watson was.

Heck, Steve Smith of Marquette took 6th place in his first full year of wrestling, knocking off Klint Calton of Blue Springs from the Championship round, and Calton was the last guy to beat Jon Ott of DeSmet, regarded as the only one likely to beat him. Calton was a stud and lost to an inexperienced athlete in Steve Smith.

You take a small 189 in Barker and place him against a HUGE Steve Watson who is not only strong and athletic, but fast as all hell, including upsetting and/or placing over multiple medalists like Lee Weeden, Ray Goodson, Dale Long, annd Craig Busby. Not placing in this bracket was multiple medalist John Hertzog.

It's just not your usual situation with Watson, no matter if he only had 2 seasons of wrestling. Barker could even have had an off day. Don't forget he beat up on Michael Cooper at 189 who hadn't lost a match in nearly 2 years before going up to 215. Cooper walked through 189 in Barkers absence. The year before Barker teched undefeated Stephen Pahl in the State finals in less than 3 minutes. Pahl had pinned everyone on his way to the State Finals including 4X medalist and undefeated State Champion (the following year) Patrick Byrne of Parkway South.

The Taxi
02-27-2009, 09:53 AM
The Barker-Watson score was 14-8 if I remember right, Coach Streb may remember some of the details of the match

Louden
02-27-2009, 09:59 AM
The Barker-Watson score was 14-8 if I remember right, Coach Streb may remember some of the details of the match

I remember it being a 6 point match as well. I doubt that Streb reads these forums though.

Warren Haynes
02-27-2009, 10:01 AM
The Barker-Watson score was 14-8 if I remember right, Coach Streb may remember some of the details of the match

I remember it being a 6 point match as well. I doubt that Streb reads these forums though.
someone is posting under his name. I didnt think to ask him on Saturday at State if it was him or not. He did the color for Class 4 and I was on Class3.

Kevin Stroh
02-27-2009, 10:12 AM
ted you have been around for a while what's some of the most dominate season's you remeber, i i thought ed pendergrast had a season where he pinned almost everyone, heck I don't think heavyweight was super strong this year but feel that, Justin Britt was super dominate how many people did he not pin this year

The Taxi
02-27-2009, 10:16 AM
I remember seeing TJ Hill in the mall one time, it was really crowded but when he walked through, people gave him at least 5 feet. I've never seen a smaller guy (used as a relative term) get so much unspoken respect in a public place. It was like people could just tell he would double leg them through a brick wall :lol: He was the most intimidating wrestler I've ever seen from Missouri. Worse than Barker with those white contacts :shock:

Head and Arm
02-27-2009, 11:10 AM
ted you have been around for a while what's some of the most dominate season's you remeber, i i thought ed pendergrast had a season where he pinned almost everyone, heck I don't think heavyweight was super strong this year but feel that, Justin Britt was super dominate how many people did he not pin this year

Meh HWT wasn't necessarily weak this year, but it hasn't been as dominant as it was in the past.

northco
02-27-2009, 05:08 PM
Sam Henson Beat Daryl Ives 19-7 or 19-8...Henson had a 19-5 lead and Ives REversed him with 5 and cradled him with 3 seconds left. Didn't get the nearfall cause the ref didn't bother getting down.

If you remember the Barker Vs. Watson Match Barker Jumped out to like a 8-0 or 10-0 lead and then Watson came back.

entire Career: Sam henson,
College: Sam Henson
High School: Scott Schatzeman
High School + Fargo: TJ Hill and Deron Winn

NAIA: Ricky Williams
D III-Scott Stefel
D II- Merrick Meyer or Jeff Sill or Chris Mihlfeld (merrick would own it but he didn't even place as a senior)
JUCO-Brian Jackson

I would have to divide them into lower weight (103-130) Middle Weight (135-152). Upper Weight (160-215) and HWT .

Lower Weigth in just High School: TJ Hill
Middle WEight in Just High School: Scott Schatzeman
Upper WEigth: Deron Winn
HWT: Dom Bradley
Dom Bradley For the 3 state titles 2 Freestyle Titles...I know he never went undefeated.

Most Dominant Seasons: (No Order)
Nick Purler, 1988 (I believed he majored Henson, and Pinned or Tech D II Champ Jeff Sill)
Tj Hill So, Jr, Sr. Year
Scott Schatzeman Jr and Sr year
Ted Hickey 1989 all pins or Techs...I Think.
Bruce Harris 1989 2 Majors and the rest pins or Techs...only one person could push him and he would gas out.
Deron Winn Senior Year...beat a tough Trevor Collins I think He majored him but not sure.
Tony Doerr, Sr Year...that 3rd placer from IL. lost to IL state Champ (Don Reynolds) and ranked #3 in the country in OT.
Jon Ott His senior Year...I believe he teched 135 champ Frank Valleroy, beat Merrick Meyer, and Majored a Tough Joe Rudjawitz.
Dustin Brewer Sr. Year
Sam henson Sr. year.



BTW, Steven Pahl Pinned Pat Byrne in OT...So Really does that count as dominating him.

Warren Haynes
02-27-2009, 05:30 PM
John ott's senior year he also dropped to 125 for our dual and beat state champion Ryan feager

Head and Arm
02-27-2009, 05:41 PM
What high schools did the following go to?

Tony and Nick Purler
John Ott
Ryan Feager
Sam Henson
Daryl Ives
Barker

Matt Burnz
02-27-2009, 06:34 PM
But look at some of the names on the list...T.J., Schatzman, the Baileys, Sammie, Purlers, Frys, Barker, Infranca, Williams brothers, Brewers, Nay... Wow, what a list.

Favorite moment: T.J. hitting Burleson in a fireman's, carrying him back to the center of the mat, before dumping him in the circle. Classic.

Another notable: Jake Fisher was a two-time champ, three-time finalist and a four-time medalist, who almost pinned his way through state a couple of years. He is currently the second-ranked greco wrestler in the U.S. at 74 kg and coming off a dominating performance over #1 Deitchler. For his post-HS career, he has to be considered.

stein
02-27-2009, 06:52 PM
What high schools did the following go to?

Tony and Nick Purler
John Ott
Ryan Feager
Sam Henson
Daryl Ives
Barker
Wentzville (Holt now)
Desmet
Fox
Howell
Pattonville
Oakville

FoxJagWarrior
02-27-2009, 07:01 PM
What high schools did the following go to?

Tony and Nick Purler
John Ott
Ryan Feager
Sam Henson
Daryl Ives
Barker
Purlers-Wentzville
John Ott-Desmet
Ryan Feager-Fox
Scott Barker-Oakville

Louden
02-28-2009, 09:27 AM
If you remember the Barker Vs. Watson Match Barker Jumped out to like a 8-0 or 10-0 lead and then Watson came back.

My memory is a little different. I have Watson keeping it close until the last minute or so and Scott then turning it up once that monster wore down.


Jon Ott His senior Year...I believe he teched 135 champ Frank Valleroy, beat Merrick Meyer, and Majored a Tough Joe Rudjawitz.

Ott beat Rujawitz like 3-1.


BTW, Steven Pahl Pinned Pat Byrne in OT...So Really does that count as dominating him.

True, but the point was that he pinned his way to the finals.

skim milk
03-02-2009, 04:35 PM
I have to know how Ethan Kyle hasn't at least been mentioned. Until his Semi's loss, everyone thought he was going to go in the books with Scotty. He has to be up there for talk of high school only.

That_Guy
03-03-2009, 08:03 AM
skim milk,

I think EK was something like 149 - 1. I bet he would have got many mentions had Ethan finished 3-1-1-1 instead of 1-1-1-3, I guess the last impression has been lasting, but to be honest Ethan, although a great high school wrestler, was not Sam Henson.

I guess.. based on what I've read is that one's post high school career seems to carry alot of weight, plus many of the wrestlers mentioned so far dominated most opponents, or beat most guys by pin or tech.

All that being said Ethan Klye was a great-great wrestler and finished with a career that most wrestlers can only envy.

Louden
03-03-2009, 08:22 AM
Dot boy was definitely a top level wrestler from Missouri, but not anywhere close to the best ever. I don't even think he was the best in his graduating class. Tony Doerr, Brian Perry, Alex Clemsen, Chase Verdorn, etc where more dominant than Ethan was.

Warren Haynes
03-03-2009, 08:42 AM
plus he went to overtime with some chump in his last match.

fudge tunnel
03-03-2009, 08:43 AM
plus he went to overtime with some chump in his last match.

I remember there being a lot of hair flowing in that match, too......

Warren Haynes
03-03-2009, 09:09 AM
yea, Geoff had some locks that year

Louden
03-03-2009, 09:11 AM
That was a great feather duster war.

Kevin Stroh
03-03-2009, 09:45 AM
Ethan was 164 and 1 and only lost one match in missouri largest class, something that only one other person has matched or beat in missouri's largest class (Schatzman) He may not of been the most dominate of wrestlers but there is one simple thing he did in high school and that was won matches. I know he wasn't an all american but he was stuck behind two time national champion Johnny Thompson and 3 time all american Nathan morgan, just to tell you what kind of kid he is John Smith kept him around as a grad assistant, this tells you his work ethic is good enough for one of the best wrestlers the us has ever had.

Warren Haynes
03-03-2009, 09:52 AM
Ethan was 164 and 1 and only lost one match in missouri largest class, something that only one other person has matched or beat in missouri's largest class (Schatzman) He may not of been the most dominate of wrestlers but there is one simple thing he did in high school and that was won matches. I know he wasn't an all american but he was stuck behind two time national champion Johnny Thompson and 3 time all american Nathan morgan, just to tell you what kind of kid he is John Smith kept him around as a grad assistant, this tells you his work ethic is good enough for one of the best wrestlers the us has ever had.
Just to clear things up, I just used this as an opportunity to make fun of my brother. No disrespect intended towards Ethan or his Viking brethren (except maybe Stroh 8)

Kevin Stroh
03-03-2009, 10:05 AM
i wasn't thinking that at all brengle, I was just stating facts that there has been alot of people try and be a four time state champ only one has done it Scotty Schatzman. and there have been a handful of kids only lose one match. This is a subject with alot of talk because there is no real way to tell, shut on my team at mizzou i wrestled with Clint Strider who i believe had 2 high school loses, and finished 2, 1,1,1 and brett fry who was a 4 timer and even good old smitty who was 2,1,3,1 with i believe 3 total loses 2 to schatzman 1 to strider he also had something like a 125 high school pins and was built like a 50 year old man, and i believe anyone of those three could be in the discussion, I think it's a good discussion with nobody being right or wrong so that's why it is entertianing.

Louden
03-03-2009, 10:24 AM
Ethan was 164 and 1 and only lost one match in missouri largest class, something that only one other person has matched or beat in missouri's largest class (Schatzman) He may not of been the most dominate of wrestlers but there is one simple thing he did in high school and that was won matches. I know he wasn't an all american but he was stuck behind two time national champion Johnny Thompson and 3 time all american Nathan morgan, just to tell you what kind of kid he is John Smith kept him around as a grad assistant, this tells you his work ethic is good enough for one of the best wrestlers the us has ever had.

No doubt dot boy accomplished an amazing feat. My point is not to discredit what he managed to do. The topic was about the best ever and IMO Super-E was maybe in the Top 5 of his graduating class. Looking at his record he was probably the best in his class, but I didn't think the thread was about who had the best record because then it is a no-brainer that the thread is about Scott.

skim milk
03-03-2009, 11:07 AM
Dot boy was definitely a top level wrestler from Missouri, but not anywhere close to the best ever. I don't even think he was the best in his graduating class. Tony Doerr, Brian Perry, Alex Clemsen, Chase Verdorn, etc where more dominant than Ethan was.

I do agree that he(Kyle) isn't the best if we look at post high school; I think then it goes hands down to Henson. However, if we look at just his high school career, he needs to be in the discussion. So what if he doesn't dominate opponents by teching and pinning them all; I didn't put him up as the most dominate season, but one of the more dominate hs careers. I think what he did during his whole high school career is as impressive as anyones. Domination can be defined as many different things, I am going to say winning 162 matches in a row is fairly dominate. I agree with what was posted earlier, if he goes 3-1-1-1, and lost in the semi's as a Freshman, we would be talking about his high school career a lot differently.

Kevin Stroh
03-03-2009, 11:14 AM
i agree everyone is entitled to there opinion, and if you really want to know my opinion the best was Henson, I know he had like 5 high school loses to older studs that wrestled div 1 wreslters that were studs purler, hickey etc, His high school creditials were pretty creditable, 3 time state champ junior national champ, us open champ while in high school, opting to wrestle in the junior worlds instead of trying to make the world team while in high school, then of course we all know the post grad stuff which no other missourian can touch 2 ncaa titles, world gold medal and world bronze medal and olympic silver medalist, I do think it's a great debate but his stats pretty much speak for themself

GotMiller
03-03-2009, 12:11 PM
Ott shouldn't even be on the list, are you serious?

coachstreb
03-03-2009, 12:15 PM
Boy did you guys dig yourself into a hole with this one. There isn't anyway to settle this argument. But it is fun watching you try. You young guys are missing a whole slew of old-timers that you have probably never heard of......... Jerry Lorenzini (3 timer from RG in the 60's), Harold Richie Sr. (get's my votes for toughest ever), Dane Ives (best craddle of all-time), Buzzy, Hap...... Let me re-direct you to something that might be a little easier "Best Finals Match Ever". My nomination is 1975 or 76 Cliff Hescamp of Ft. Zumwalt (there was only one then) vs. some Freshman from St. Joe that disappeared after that year. A one point barn-burner that had Hescamp holding onto a semi-standing quarter nelson for a victory after riding the kid almost the whole third period (Yes kids, back then the bottom wrestler actually had to earn an escape and being on top wasn't considered automatic stalling).

Also, to quote from the movie "We were Soldiers", "Any of you Sons-of-B*****s calls me Grandpa and I'll kill you"

Louden
03-03-2009, 12:43 PM
So what if he doesn't dominate opponents by teching and pinning them all; I didn't put him up as the most dominate season, but one of the more dominate hs careers. I think what he did during his whole high school career is as impressive as anyones. Domination can be defined as many different things, I am going to say winning 162 matches in a row is fairly dominate. I agree with what was posted earlier, if he goes 3-1-1-1, and lost in the semi's as a Freshman, we would be talking about his high school career a lot differently.

There are definitely some aspects of Super E's High School career that deserve being noted as among the GOAT, I just mentioned my personal opinion that in a discussion about the Best Wrestler from Missouri Ever, even if we are only looking at High School, a lot of people beat Ethan. Scott Barker was SQ, 2nd, 1st, 1st so if you look at that in comparison to Super E's 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd it falls short. But Barker, IMO was clearly the superior wrestler. What Barker consistantly did to top level wrestlers in High School was not something Super E ever did. Super E had close matches with Shrum, Hale, Brengle, Dickman, and more. All of those guys I mentioned are stellar wrestlers in their own right, and being as good as those guys are they gave Ethan a good match consistantly. On the other hand Barker HANDLED guys like that. Ray Goodson (who was the undefeated State Champ the following year, teching and pinning everyone) was pinned by Barker in 20 seconds. He tech falled undefeated Stephen Pahl. He cruised past Michael Cooper who I believe was a 2Xer. He pinned his guy in the finals of Senior nationals in 22 seconds. He beat both Joe Bevis (3rd in Illinois) and Kirgan (3rd in Illinois) at the East/West Dual Meet to fill in for a missing Missouri guy.

Barker is just one example. I think you can make a case for Chase Verdoorn, Tony Doerr, Brian Perry, etc all being as good if not better in High School. Ethan was most dominant his sophmore year at 103, less so his Junior year at 112, and even more less dominant as a senior at 130. I think his best years were his freshman and sophmore year at 103.

Again, I am not saying anything bad about Ethan. He is certainly one of the best guys we had in 2002. I am just voicing my opinion in why I don't think he sits among the GOAT in Missouri History.

Warren Haynes
03-03-2009, 12:51 PM
better put a "G" in front of that Brengle there louden. We don't need anyone thinking that I was any good :D

Louden
03-03-2009, 01:24 PM
better put a "G" in front of that Brengle there louden. We don't need anyone thinking that I was any good :D

What are you talking about? I thought you were Brent Haynes's special uncle Warren:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ph8V052fCNE/RoKTfZVMnjI/AAAAAAAAAlo/rprPY5uiSJA/s320/warren.jpg

The Taxi
03-03-2009, 04:44 PM
Boy did you guys dig yourself into a hole with this one. There isn't anyway to settle this argument. But it is fun watching you try. You young guys are missing a whole slew of old-timers that you have probably never heard of......... Jerry Lorenzini (3 timer from RG in the 60's), Harold Richie Sr. (get's my votes for toughest ever), Dane Ives (best craddle of all-time), Buzzy, Hap...... Let me re-direct you to something that might be a little easier "Best Finals Match Ever". My nomination is 1975 or 76 Cliff Hescamp of Ft. Zumwalt (there was only one then) vs. some Freshman from St. Joe that disappeared after that year. A one point barn-burner that had Hescamp holding onto a semi-standing quarter nelson for a victory after riding the kid almost the whole third period (Yes kids, back then the bottom wrestler actually had to earn an escape and being on top wasn't considered automatic stalling).

Also, to quote from the movie "We were Soldiers", "Any of you Sons-of-B*****s calls me Grandpa and I'll kill you"

Who let Grandpa touch the keyboard again?! :lol:

Krondar
03-03-2009, 05:00 PM
Boy did you guys dig yourself into a hole with this one. There isn't anyway to settle this argument. But it is fun watching you try. You young guys are missing a whole slew of old-timers that you have probably never heard of......... Jerry Lorenzini (3 timer from RG in the 60's), Harold Richie Sr. (get's my votes for toughest ever), Dane Ives (best craddle of all-time), Buzzy, Hap...... Let me re-direct you to something that might be a little easier "Best Finals Match Ever". My nomination is 1975 or 76 Cliff Hescamp of Ft. Zumwalt (there was only one then) vs. some Freshman from St. Joe that disappeared after that year. A one point barn-burner that had Hescamp holding onto a semi-standing quarter nelson for a victory after riding the kid almost the whole third period (Yes kids, back then the bottom wrestler actually had to earn an escape and being on top wasn't considered automatic stalling).

Also, to quote from the movie "We were Soldiers", "Any of you Sons-of-B*****s calls me Grandpa and I'll kill you"




Coach, will all do respect, maybe we should have a "Seniors" version of Missouriwrestlingdotcom :D

...never saw Dane Ives wrestle, but I heard Daryl was just as mean....any thought to that.....I know its hard to see how mean someone is when there wrestling Sam Henson or Jim Truman

Krondar
03-03-2009, 05:17 PM
my small top 5 112-135lbs (I don't acknowledge 103 as a weight class)

TJ Hill
Henson
Purler
Ricky Williams ...best OP wrestler in there history...would of loved a Purler vs. R Willams matchup
Schatzman


my medium top 5: 140-171



my big top 5: 185 ish - HWY

Barker
Caputo
Winn
Bruce Harris

coachstreb
03-03-2009, 06:12 PM
This would be an awesome discussion over many drinks following a clinic and/or tournament. I'm sure looking forward to getting back into the saddle for stuff like this!

fudge tunnel
03-03-2009, 06:49 PM
... but I heard Daryl was just as mean....any thought to that.....I know its hard to see how mean someone is when there wrestling Sam Henson or Jim Truman

Did he wrestle at Brewer High School?

:twisted:

Thfzn
03-03-2009, 06:51 PM
This conversation has drifted in many different directions.

But since Rocky brought up his "era"(didn't everbody wear tights and wrestle on horse hair mats)I'll mention a fewof the guy that I remember either wrestling with or watching as a youth wrestler.

Seems like being dominate is one of the main criterias in this discussion, so here are a few of the names that stand out.

80 - 90

Doug Anderson, future MU wrestler, was on the front page of the St. Louis Post Disptach Sports Page under the heading "The Best Wrestler In Missouri" then lost the next day in the first round of state to another guy who named should be mentioned Dwight Downs. Dwight only had one loss his last two years of high school as he pinned himself in a Sanders Cradle.

Ed Bounichi and Mike Snelling from Excelsior Springs. Snelling took Matt Zeitz, now one of Missouri's top officials, out behind the woodshed his senior year.

Bich Pho from St. Charles, although it was rumored Bich was 21 years old when he won state.

Brian Jackson of Desmet, only a one-timer, but walked through the field his senior year at...185 lbs, as Brian will tell you that was a long time ago.

Jeff Ditter of FZN, when he reached the finals as a 9th grader he was the first Freshmen in the Final in a five year span.

Dave Mirikitani of Kirkwood, I'm thinking Dave was the only 3x big school champion in the 80's.

Greg Warren of Kirkwwod, the future funnyman was pretty tough back in the day.

Sam Gaines of Helias, Sam could take you down or smash your face as he was a gold gloves champion. In my opinion still the best wrestler from Helias.

Jason Sexton of Francis Howell North, the first state champion for FHN and the school's only 3x champion.

Rick Williams of Oak Park, Kansas City's finest during this time, still one of Oak Park's all-time best wrestlers.

Of course I'll mention my brother, Jerry Hickey, one of only two 4X finalist in the 1980's...Who was the other?

Bruce Harris,the big man from McCluer North wrestled like a lighweight, Bruce was one of many great wrestlers from McCluer North at the time.

Of course I've already mentioned the Purlers and Henson, Sam also had a brother named Chuck who was pretty good himself.

Dan Callahan from Hazelwood West.

Jon Krause from Farmington, Farmington's first state champion, Jon took out the defending champ in about 20 seconds his senior year.

I'm sure I forgot a name or two, but those are some that stick out.
O' how the memories start to flow...You'd be surprised what a dime could buy 20 years ago.

Loethen
03-03-2009, 07:00 PM
I would also put Bryant Gaines on that list -- He was a true state champion as he beat both the 1A-2A State champ and the 4A state champ in 89 I believe.

I would put Sam Gaines up against any (I said Any) 30 or 35lbr from Missouri ever, any era even Bailey or Pierce -- Stats be dammed or Fargo or whatever, It wouldn't matter Sam was too strong, too mean, too physical. Stats or this or that wouldn't mean a thing if you had to face Sam in his prime, eye to eye on the mat.

jhayes
03-03-2009, 08:23 PM
Loethen,

Funny you should mention the Gaines brother. In HS I wrestled the larger one to a close match one year and the next year, he majored me like something awful. Sedalia back then wasn't in to wrestling and that's being nice. The smaller one wrestled my teammate (Paul) and Paul beat him both times. One year he put him in a sleeper hole and he was out like a light. I never saw anything like that before in my life other than WWF stuff. The funny thing about about the matches between Paul and Gaines is that both times Paul's shoulder popped out and Helias thought he was faking. I thought it was funny at the time but he's shoulder popped out all the time especially during football season.

Anyway Loethen that name just brought back some memories but they were awesome.

Loethen
03-03-2009, 08:40 PM
Are you sure you are not thinking of the Gaineys (also brothers). Both Gaines placed 4x and won state 2x

jhayes
03-03-2009, 08:43 PM
Paul & I graduated from Smith-Cotton in 1988. I'm pretty sure it was them. Your statement would imply that they went undefeated.

Loethen
03-03-2009, 08:46 PM
Sam was undefeated in 88 I believe Bryant was also-- the wt classes wouldhave been 130 or 135 and 135 or 140. The Younger one was larger. The older one was smaller and he was undefeated that year. The Younger one bet the 4A state Champ and the 1A/2A state champ and won 3A in 89

jhayes
03-03-2009, 08:48 PM
OK.

Loethen
03-03-2009, 08:49 PM
I would love to but I am in Japan.

jhayes
03-03-2009, 08:52 PM
You might want to go back and check your facts on his stats because I know for a fact that Paul beat him both times, I was there and watched the match prior to me getting my backside handed to me. They were big names when they visited our HS and everyone knew it. According to the MSHSAA, Bryant record is 110-15-3.

It might've been the years that he didn't win state, I don't recall the years. I just know that it was a big deal back then. You have to understand also that Paul was an athlete that wrestled with pure talent and no coaching. He was like a Mac Bailey type of kid. I'm sure I'll hear about that but anyway, LOL. He ran a 4.2 40 yard dash, outstanding running back and etc. His dad was the Head Coach but not a wrestling coach by no means. Paul was one of the wrestlers that went to the wrong HS. If he had attended a school like Helias, he would've easily been a state champ, my opinion. We all know wrestlers like that.

Loethen
03-03-2009, 09:04 PM
The facts are:

Sam won state in 87 and 88 (3,3,1,1, I beleive)
Bryant won State in 88 and 89 (5,3,1,1 I believe)

He may have beaten him in one the years they didn't win state.

jhayes
03-03-2009, 09:11 PM
We see the same facts but how many State Champs don't have a undefeated record? I'm not knocking the Gaines in anyway, just remembering what happened back in the day. If it wasn't for the sleeper hold, I probably wouldn't thought twice about your post other than me getting handled. It seems your taking this personal.

Another thing I remember the following year when I was getting ready to wrestle Sam, I thought, I wrestled him tough last year and maybe I'll beat him this time, NOT.

Allan Waters, Cody Tyler, Mac Bailey, Skylar Wood and others had lost a match this season and they are state champs, it happens. You don't have to go undefeated to be a State Champ. If that's the case, someone forgot to tell all the State Champs that lost a match this season that they don't meet the requirements to be a State Champ, LOL.

Clements
03-03-2009, 09:25 PM
Thfzn - "O' how the memories start to flow...You'd be surprised what a dime could buy 20 years ago."

Did you seriously just quote a Kenny Rogers song? :shock:

oxman
03-03-2009, 09:39 PM
Of course I'll mention my brother, Jerry Hickey, one of only two 4X finalist in the 1980's... Who was the other? GUESSES only.......Humility is a terrible thing to waste........ :)
Ray Routh(Warrensburg)....??
Darren Davis(Blue Springs)...???
Jeff Renzelman(Carrollton)....???
Byron McCluer(Cameron)....????
Mark Palmer(Pleasant Hill)....???
Alfred Morgan(DeSoto)....???
Eric DeVenney(Rock Bridge)
Eric Nash(Saint Joe Lafayette)...???
Shaon Fry(Oak Grove)......????
Jeff Ditter(Fort Zumwalt North)....???
Mike Snelling(Excelsior Springs)....???
Scott Fiedler(Pacific)....?????
Ricky Williams(Oak Park)....???
Ed Bonuchi(Excelsior Springs)...???
Wynn Mullin(Seneca)...???
Scott Hamilton(Richmond)......???
Kendal Koch(Clinton)....???
Jason Sexton(Francis Howell North)....???
Sam Gaines(Helias)....???
Brett Stewart(Brookfield)....????
Bruce Harris(McCluer North)...????
Danny Knapp(Lexington)....????
Ted Hickey(Saint Charles West).....????
Scott Sissom(Hazelwood West)...???
Nick Pedocke(Richmond)....???
Mike Frizzell(Carl Junction)....????
Lance Allen(Neosho)....???
Darryl Ives(Pattonville)...???
8)

Loethen
03-03-2009, 09:48 PM
Jason, not at all. i take very little personally (unless it is about my kids or brothers)


Sam was undeafeated for two years
Bryant was undefeated at least in 89 -- he beat the 4A and the 1A-2A state champ that year

jhayes
03-03-2009, 10:00 PM
Jason, not at all. i take very little personally (unless it is about my kids or brothers)
Sam was undeafeated for two years
Bryant was undefeated at least in 89 -- he beat the 4A and the 1A-2A state champ that year

We (Paul & I) graduated in '88.

fudge tunnel
03-04-2009, 04:20 AM
A few that I remember...



Of course I'll mention my brother, Jerry Hickey, one of only two 4X finalist in the 1980's... Who was the other? GUESSES only.......Humility is a terrible thing to waste........ :)
Ray Routh(Warrensburg)....??....4,1,2,1. Speaking of Bryant Gaines...Ray made him look like a little leaguer
Darren Davis(Blue Springs)...???
Jeff Renzelman(Carrollton)....???
Byron McCluer(Cameron)....????
Mark Palmer(Pleasant Hill)....???...4,1,3,3
Alfred Morgan(DeSoto)....???
Eric DeVenney(Rock Bridge)
Eric Nash(Saint Joe Lafayette)...???
Shaon Fry(Oak Grove)......????....2,1,1,1
Jeff Ditter(Fort Zumwalt North)....???
Mike Snelling(Excelsior Springs)....???
Scott Fiedler(Pacific)....?????
Ricky Williams(Oak Park)....???....1,3,1,1
Ed Bonuchi(Excelsior Springs)...???
Wynn Mullin(Seneca)...???
Scott Hamilton(Richmond)......???
Kendal Koch(Clinton)....???
Jason Sexton(Francis Howell North)....???....Q,1,1,1
Sam Gaines(Helias)....???
Brett Stewart(Brookfield)....????....6,2,1,1
Bruce Harris(McCluer North)...????
Danny Knapp(Lexington)....????....2,2,1,1
Ted Hickey(Saint Charles West).....????....2,1,2,1
Scott Sissom(Hazelwood West)...???
Nick Pedocke(Richmond)....???....2,1,1,1
Mike Frizzell(Carl Junction)....????
Lance Allen(Neosho)....???
Darryl Ives(Pattonville)...???
8)

Loethen
03-04-2009, 05:56 AM
Maybe Fudge when he was a FR or a SO not when he was a JR or SR. Compare Apples to Apples


But back to my orginal point I would take Sam Gaines in his prime against any 30 or 35 lbr from MO ever.
Gaines only had 5 loses with a 941% (undefeated for last 2 years)

angry elf
03-04-2009, 05:59 AM
Eddie Bonuchi: did not place his freshman year. Lost 1st round to a kid from hillcrest. Snelling took 5th his soph. year. :-D

That_Guy
03-04-2009, 06:57 AM
Jason Sexton, Shaon Fry and Nick Pedocke all finished in 1990.

fudge tunnel
03-04-2009, 10:42 AM
Jason Sexton, Shaon Fry and Nick Pedocke all finished in 1990.

As did Mark Palmer, Brett Stewart, Ricky Williams, Eric Nash, Kendal Koch and Daryl Ives (from Ox's list). Danny Knapp finished in 1991.

fallguy
03-04-2009, 01:00 PM
Sam Gaines placed 3-2-1-1. Bryant did place 5-3-1-1. Sam was the one that got pinned in the finals his sophomore year by Ray Routh of Savannah. Routh later transferred to Warrensburg. I've been watching the State Championships since 1978. Comparing high school careers only, no one was as good as TJ Hill in my opinion. Schatzman had a better record, but TJ lost three matches his freshman year & none after that. I would think that he was an undersized 103 his freshman year, which may account for the losses.

fallguy
03-04-2009, 01:07 PM
I've seen alot of the older Helias wrestlers. I am not a Helias fan, as they were our rivals. So I have an unbiased opinion. I would rank their top three best wrestlers of all time as follows:

1. John Kusick
2. Kurt Lage
3. Sam Gaines

oxman
03-04-2009, 01:51 PM
I've seen alot of the older Helias wrestlers. I am not a Helias fan, as they were our rivals. So I have an unbiased opinion.
I would rank their top three best wrestlers of all time as follows:
1. John Kusick
2. Kurt Lage
3. Sam GainesHere are some other Helias wrestlers for consideration as Top-3 Helias wrestlers of All-Time, depending on your criteria:
Tod Wilson
Aaron Schrimpf
Nick Schrimpf
Bryant Gaines
Matt Parris
Jeff Morton
Jeff Berendzen
Bruce Smith
Jason Luebbert
8)

Thfzn
03-04-2009, 02:45 PM
Clements,

Don't you like the "Gambler"...Seriously what's worse me using that line or you knowing who sang it?

Ox,

I knew I forgot many names, you brought up a few I remember.

Don't know how I left off Al Morgan.

Some others..

Todd Clements - Desmet 1-Q-1 (Todd got hurt his junior year in the quarters)

Todd Sissom-4-1-3 and Scott Sissom 2-1-1 from Hazelwood West

Bruce Smith 1-1 Helias

Jon McBride 1-1 Wentzville (Holt) Jon's only loss his last two years was to Sissom.

Daryl Ives 4-3-2-1 Pattoville

Scott Fielder 1-1-1 Pacific - He was the first guy to win the same weight three years in a row.

Jeff Sill and Mike Fizzell of Carl Junction, both were multiple time state champs, then CJ bumped up to 3A from 1A - 2A and they each drew a Purler in the finals. Jeff was a D2 Champion for UNO.

Lance Allen Neosho 1-2-1

fudge tunnel
03-04-2009, 03:03 PM
Daryl Ives 4-3-2-1 Pattoville



I thought Ives lost in the finals 2x - to Brewer and Henson?

oxman
03-04-2009, 03:25 PM
Daryl Ives 4-3-2-1 PattovilleI thought Ives lost in the finals 2x - to Brewer and Henson?I think that Ives was 3-2-2-1...NOT positive.....
8)

fudge tunnel
03-04-2009, 07:11 PM
Another who should be mentioned in a list of Best all-time MO wrestlers is Shawn Fox. He went 1,2,1,1.......losing only 3 matches in HS (all his sophomore year). I believe his career record was 119-3-2. He was an undefeated state champ his freshman year in CT.

Thfzn
03-04-2009, 07:36 PM
How about Chris Milfield, although today he is better known as the former personal traniner for one Albert Puhols, he was a major league stud back in the day.

A 2X from Winnotonka, Milfied only wrestled a few years in college at CMSU finishing 5th then 1st in D2, all while excelling on a CMSU's baseball team.

FT - You were right about Ives.

Clements
03-04-2009, 08:35 PM
[quote="Thfzn"]Clements,

Don't you like the "Gambler"...Seriously what's worse me using that line or you knowing who sang it?

Ted, Good point. I confess, I do have his greatest hits CD.

I know it's uncouth, but you might want to seriously consider listing your own credentials as I think they're pretty darn good. =D>

fallguy
03-05-2009, 07:46 AM
I'll do it so he doesn't have to. To the best of my memory, I would rank the three best Hickeys in Missouri History as follows.

1. Ted Hickey 2-1-2-1
2. Jerry Hickey 2-2-1-1
3. Shawn Hickey 0-4-3-1

This was quite a brother combination. Ted I believe was 24-0 entering Division I Nationals his senior year, & had the good fortune of wrestling a guy by the name of Lincoln McIlravy. They all wrestled for (Southwest) Missouri State. Don't remember how Shawn fared at SIU-Edwardsville after SMS dropped their program. Maybe thfzn can follow up.

Throbin Williams
03-05-2009, 02:39 PM
cael sanderson was a beast

robert
03-05-2009, 03:28 PM
Hey THORBIN WHILLY, while I'll agree Cael is and was a beast he is from UTAH???

Throbin Williams
03-05-2009, 07:03 PM
lol yea i know it was a joke

GotMiller
03-05-2009, 07:47 PM
Sam was undefeated in 88 I believe Bryant was also-- the wt classes wouldhave been 130 or 135 and 135 or 140. The Younger one was larger. The older one was smaller and he was undefeated that year. The Younger one bet the 4A state Champ and the 1A/2A state champ and won 3A in 89

Sam was 34-0 in 88
Bryant was 32-3 in 88 and 32-0 in 1989

RoidRanger
03-12-2009, 04:51 AM
Eric Brown Undefeated State Champ 5X

muskylounge
12-06-2010, 08:07 PM
Here are some other Helias wrestlers for consideration as Top-3 Helias wrestlers of All-Time, depending on your criteria:
Tod Wilson
Aaron Schrimpf
Nick Schrimpf
Bryant Gaines
Matt Parris
Jeff Morton
Jeff Berendzen
Bruce Smith
Jason Luebbert
8)


A real good friend of mine John L. from Helias gave me a book that had all the Helias records in it for wrestling. Most takedowns in a year/career all the way to most points scored. I do believe hands down the most prolific wrestler that Helias has is Jeff Morton. The best match I ever saw was the overtime match between him and Bic Pho of St Charles whan Bic was on a mission. Sorry if I mispelled Bic's first name. :(

louden812
12-07-2010, 09:19 AM
Winning is the rule for my list. Here are the best IMHO

Scott Schatzman - 1 1.00%
Ethan Kyle - T2 .994%
CaleGriffin - T2 .994%
Keith dickey - T2 .994%
Dustin Brewer - 3 .989%
*Rob Stolin - 4 .986%
T.J.Hill - T5 .981%
Peter Miller -T5 .981%
Bobby Conn T6 .975%
Dan Callhan - T6 .975%
Zach Baily - T6 .975%
Matt Infranca - 7 .973%
Aaron Senzee - 8 .971%

* Best never to win state.

louden812
12-07-2010, 10:12 AM
Some others who would be on the list but I didn't have winning percentages for in no particular order are:

Sammie Henson
Deron Winn
Nick and Tony Purler
David Cringan
James Williamson
Tim Kephart
Louis Caputo

fudge tunnel
12-07-2010, 10:30 AM
Some others who would be on the list but I didn't have winning percentages for in no particular order are:

Sammie Henson
Deron Winn
Nick and Tony Purler
David Cringan
James Williamson
Tim Kephart
Louis Caputo

While Cringan and Williamson were good wrestlers, they certainly do not need to be on this list....

stouder
12-07-2010, 10:47 AM
I am pretty sure Kephardt only had 3 high school loses. 2 of the losses where to Hansen of Wenztville as a freshman i believe, and the other was to Kip Smith of Hazelwood East as a sophmore in the state simi's.

louden812
12-07-2010, 11:23 AM
Yep Tim was one of the best no doubt.

As far as Cringan goes well he's in the record book so I went by what they said. Fastest tech fall twice 2:06 and 2:08, most takedowns in a single match, # 3 all time mat points, # 7 all time takedowns, #21 total near falls, #4 escapes, wins by tech fall 88-89 and 89-90 #3 and #4 respectively.

I thought that was an OK showing.

James williamson 3X state champ. Not bad either.

Unfortunately not everyone's AD did a good job of submitting records.

mlrlte22
12-07-2010, 12:21 PM
Rob Stolin won state as a Senior (39-0). You are probably thinking of his brother Jared. He was a 4 time state medal winner. 6-3-2-2

louden812
12-07-2010, 12:42 PM
My bad. Sorry Rob!

fudge tunnel
12-07-2010, 01:08 PM
As far as Cringan goes well he's in the record book so I went by what they said. Fastest tech fall twice 2:06 and 2:08, most takedowns in a single match, # 3 all time mat points, # 7 all time takedowns, #21 total near falls, #4 escapes, wins by tech fall 88-89 and 89-90 #3 and #4 respectively.

I thought that was an OK showing.

James williamson 3X state champ. Not bad either.

.

I would not go by what's in the "record book", as it is painfully and laughably incomplete (as well as inaccurate).

Don't get me wrong, Cringan was tough, and extremely hard to wrestle (mostly because he was/is 3 feet tall). But he wasn't even in the top 5 of class 1A/2A wrestlers from 1990 (behind Shaon Fry, Nick Pedockie, Shawn Fox, Kendell Koch, Brett Stewart, Danny Knapp, and probably Kyle Tracy, Drue Christian and a couple others). Hell, I remember him getting destroyed in the Ray South finals by Brian Woolverton, who didn't even place in class 4A that year.

And, Williamson was not a 3x state champ.

louden812
12-07-2010, 02:12 PM
Well I did say there were others, those are ones who came to mind. I think I'll leave Cringan on my list anyway. And as for James 2X SC is still pretty good in my estimation.

Did you win state fudgetunnel? You seem to know an awful lot.

fudge tunnel
12-07-2010, 02:23 PM
Nope, I did not win state. And yes, I do know an awful lot.

And based on a majority of your posts, you don't know jack-sh!t.....

louden812
12-07-2010, 03:48 PM
Man you are clever.
I haven't heard anything like that before.

Never won state, that had to hurt, but I bet you placed didn't you?

louden812
12-07-2010, 05:47 PM
So, I guess you never placed either. Am I right?

stouder
12-08-2010, 02:46 AM
What about Clint Woelk(sp) from Ste.Gen? Not sure on his summer accomplishments, but what he did in High School is pretty good. Less than 5 or so high schcool loses. I know of 2 losses going into his senior, both coming when he was a junior at state(loethen of helias,and sanders of smith cotton). Dont remember how many total losses, but a 3xSC and atleast 2 of them being undefeated is worthy of mentioning based on high school stats alone.

louden812
12-08-2010, 06:28 AM
There were a bunch of Woelks from St. Gen as I recall who were pretty good. Heck there might be another one right now. Kind of like the Virtue family @ Lindbergh just when you think your getting a break another one shows up.

You know it would be great if someone had all the stats compiled someplace. I would say though that it would Have to be either Scott Schatzman or Sammie Henson based on HS, Collegiate and Olympic achievements.

By the way, thank you for the intelligent and non belligerent conversation Stouder. Always good to talk to an adult.

Bob Pollock
12-08-2010, 07:07 AM
Man you are clever.
I haven't heard anything like that before.

Never won state, that had to hurt, but I bet you placed didn't you?

Mike, He not only let a State title slip away back then, he lost in the 2009 First Annual Pool Wrestling Championship to Jonathan. He placed third behind me. In 2010, Jonathan defaulted as a no show and FT didn't make weigh making me the 2010 Champion. I will get you some dates for next year. It takes place at Lazy Gators.

louden812
12-08-2010, 08:03 AM
Bob,
Thank you for the reply, that was good. My name is not Mike however.

I do thank you for your post though. What would your top wrestler list look like?

fudge tunnel
12-08-2010, 10:09 AM
By the way, thank you for the intelligent and non belligerent conversation Stouder. Always good to talk to an adult.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b371/fudgetunnel12345/Internethurtmyfeelings.jpg

louden812
12-08-2010, 12:01 PM
LOL. Such a clever boy.

What exactly does the term "fudge tunnel" mean anyway. Is it a gay thing? Not that there is anything wrong with being gay.

So "tunnel" you never won, never placed, but surely you must have as least wrestled varsity didn't you? Did you win any matches? I bet you liked to be ridden didn't you.

I am always amazed by someone who would take the time to post seven thousand times. It must really be important to you to be recognized somewhere.

I guess if I had problems with insecurity, low self esteem and bouts of homosexual panic I would probably want to constanly try to best others and show how clever I am too.

Fortunately I have better things to do than scour the internet for someone to be ignorant too.

fudge tunnel
12-08-2010, 12:08 PM
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b371/fudgetunnel12345/2hezdc4.jpg

Super Gay AL
12-08-2010, 12:09 PM
Is it a gay thing? Not that there is anything wrong with being gay.


Hellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllo

Warren Haynes
12-08-2010, 12:18 PM
LOL. Such a clever boy.

What exactly does the term "fudge tunnel" mean anyway. Is it a gay thing? Not that there is anything wrong with being gay.

So "tunnel" you never won, never placed, but surely you must have as least wrestled varsity didn't you? Did you win any matches? I bet you liked to be ridden didn't you.

I am always amazed by someone who would take the time to post seven thousand times. It must really be important to you to be recognized somewhere.

I guess if I had problems with insecurity, low self esteem and bouts of homosexual panic I would probably want to constanly try to best others and show how clever I am too.

Fortunately I have better things to do than scour the internet for someone to be ignorant too.



Despite their rough-hewn, incredibly heavy, feedback-drenched sound, Nottingham's Fudge Tunnel quickly transcended the obvious heavy metal tag to find widespread critical praise outside such limits. And while this support never did translate into commercial success, it is interesting to note that Fudge Tunnel's surprising crossover appeal, along with their low-key image and absolute lack of pretense, marked them as un-hailed British predecessors to the Seattle scene.

louden812
12-08-2010, 12:25 PM
Well I guess that explains the name. Thank you Warren.

By the way good luck to your team this year. Are you still coaching at FOX or is it Seckman? Sorry I'm not a "maestro of minutia" and don't know everything about Missouri wrestling.

Warren Haynes
12-08-2010, 12:31 PM
Well I guess that explains the name. Thank you Warren.

By the way good luck to your team this year. Are you still coaching at FOX or is it Seckman? Sorry I'm not a "maestro of minutia" and don't know everything about Missouri wrestling.

Still at Fox. and no apology necessary

dabears37
12-08-2010, 01:08 PM
Despite their rough-hewn, incredibly heavy, feedback-drenched sound, Nottingham's Fudge Tunnel quickly transcended the obvious heavy metal tag to find widespread critical praise outside such limits. And while this support never did translate into commercial success, it is interesting to note that Fudge Tunnel's surprising crossover appeal, along with their low-key image and absolute lack of pretense, marked them as un-hailed British predecessors to the Seattle scene.

Nice googling, Tex. When I first read this, I thought, "Wow, Warren has an impressive creative writing side!" But I see you are a master at cutting and pasting. :lol:

Seriously, I had no idea (and I lived in Seattle for years). Thank goodness for music.aol.com :biggrin1:

-Y

rusty190
12-08-2010, 04:50 PM
Let's remember the original question- best from Mo ever. If this same question appeared on other message boards in other strong wrestling states, I think they would be looking beyond the high school accomplishments. After all, doesn't every state have those standouts? If you are really talking best ever from a state, you must go beyond the smaller arenas and consider the most accomplished wretler at the highest level.

Leroy Jenkins
12-08-2010, 10:01 PM
Sam Henson


no one is close to Henson....in my mind hes an Olympic Champ. (he was clearly fvcked in the Olympic finals)

As far as college goes, hes easily a 4 x AA if possible 3 time Nat Champ, if he leaves that stereo where it belongs, in Columbia.

1. Henson
2. Purler (If Z Bailey wins it this year, he takes this spot)
3. .....this is where it can get interesting

Warren Haynes
12-09-2010, 06:45 AM
no one is close to Henson....in my mind hes an Olympic Champ. (he was clearly fvcked in the Olympic finals)

As far as college goes, hes easily a 4 x AA if possible 3 time Nat Champ, if he leaves that stereo where it belongs, in Columbia.

1. Henson
2. Purler (If Z Bailey wins it this year, he takes this spot)
3. .....this is where it can get interesting

World Champion is on is resume too.

MLBRUEM
12-09-2010, 06:59 AM
I agree it is Henson and then the discussion begins for 2,3 ----

NCAA Champion for our own Missouri Tigers, Mark Ellis deserves recognition in the discussion for one of those spots. NO he deserves one of those spots period.

Thanks Mark for your hard work and determination

Go Tigers

Old Man
12-09-2010, 07:14 AM
LOL. Such a clever boy.

What exactly does the term "fudge tunnel" mean anyway. Is it a gay thing? Not that there is anything wrong with being gay.

So "tunnel" you never won, never placed, but surely you must have as least wrestled varsity didn't you? Did you win any matches? I bet you liked to be ridden didn't you.

I am always amazed by someone who would take the time to post seven thousand times. It must really be important to you to be recognized somewhere.

I guess if I had problems with insecurity, low self esteem and bouts of homosexual panic I would probably want to constanly try to best others and show how clever I am too.

Fortunately I have better things to do than scour the internet for someone to be ignorant too.

He's a lean mean fightin machice. Be careful messing with him. Others have tried and failed. Some less fortunate than others. His favorite move is the butt drag.

louden812
12-09-2010, 10:51 AM
If folks want to be civil then I welcome them. If not then I respond. Not intimidated by anyone who posts on an internet forum. Thanks for the warning though. Hopefully we can all just stick to the format and discuss wrestling. Without a great deal of foppery.

Stupid the Kid
12-09-2010, 11:08 AM
Not intimidated by anyone who posts on an internet forum.

Tough guy

louden812
12-10-2010, 07:51 AM
Tough enough.

KCmoWrestleFan
12-10-2010, 08:38 AM
They are just messing with you brotha relax. Fudge Tunnel has been adding very good stuff to the website for years. Don't take it personal its just a message board.

Also FT knows a lot about the history of Missouri wrestling.

louden812
12-10-2010, 01:00 PM
KCMO - Thanks I appreciate that. Just letting folks know that I can be cordial or swing with the best of them if need be. If I actually knew "tunnel" I may have just laughed. Since I do not, it seemed inappropriate.

I'm not an encyclopedia of missouri wrestling but I've had a little experience with it here and there. Mostly in the past 10 years though I don't go way back. So please forgive my frequent mistakes on names and stats. I do this strictly for fun it's not "life or death" to me

I still think it would have to be either Sammie Henson or Scott Schatzman for best ever. I would imagine Tony Purler would have to be at least considered but Sammies silver and Scotts 3X AA and 100% HS career along with other FS national titles makes them both pretty tough to beat.

Just my opinion though and I certainly welcome yours.

MLBRUEM
12-10-2010, 03:03 PM
Hope we get to put Dom Bradley in contention for this honor after he wins an NCAA tiltle and Olympic Gold

Go Tigers

Leroy Jenkins
12-16-2010, 12:18 AM
actually......
1. Henson
2. Purler (dont think ZB is on the same level)
3. Fry/Purler

wrestlingdadx3
12-17-2010, 09:13 AM
i look for alan waters to someday make this list

fatlaz
12-17-2010, 11:58 AM
Chip Bunner beat Wes Wesley at the Afton Quadrangular. That should count for something.

banana split 101
12-19-2010, 01:25 PM
yes could not agree more olympic silver medalist and world champion great pick

wrestlingdadx3
12-19-2010, 05:33 PM
high school career only-----scott feidler from pacific was one hell of a beast

MLBRUEM
12-20-2010, 08:36 AM
high school career only-----scott feidler from pacific was one hell of a beast

If BEAST is the criteria then Scott Barker wins with no opposition

Leroy Jenkins
12-20-2010, 12:52 PM
henson would have skinned barker.

wrestlingdadx3
12-20-2010, 01:15 PM
Feidler would have skinned henson and barker at the same time