Park Hill Duals

[Chief Renegade]

Any early rosters out there for the Park Hill Duals on May 17th?

Here is a look at Team Kansas: (So far)

98 -
105 - Jeff Vesta - State Champion 07
112 - Nathan Furches - State Champion 06
119 - Sharky Slyter - State Champion 07
125 - Ryne Cokeley - State Champion 08
130 - Trison Graham - State Champion 05-06-07-08
135 - CJ Napier - State Champion 07-08
140 - Kendric Maple - State Champion 08
145 - Chase Nelson - State Champion 07-08
152 - Chris Watson - State Champion 08
160 - Kyle Detmer - State Champion 07
171 - Scott Elliott - State Champion 05-06-08
189 - Romero Cotton - State Champion 05-06-07-08
215 - Kyle Caylor - State Champion 08/Tyler Strouhal - 2X SQ (Alt)
285 -

[Chief Renegade]

Final Roster for Team Kansas:

98 - Isaac Ruiz - State Champion 08/Zach Vesta - Kids State Champion 07
105 - Jeff Vesta - State Champion 07
112 - Nathan Furches - State Champion 06
119 - Sharky Slyter - State Champion 07
125 - Ryne Cokeley - State Champion 08
130 - Trison Graham - State Champion 05-06-07-08
135 - CJ Napier - State Champion 07-08
140 - Kendric Maple - State Champion 08
145 - Chase Nelson - State Champion 07-08
152 - Chris Watson - State Champion 08
160 - Kyle Detmer - State Champion 07
171 - Scott Elliott - State Champion 05-06-08
189 - Romero Cotton - State Champion 05-06-07-08
215 - Kyle Caylor - State Champion 08/Tyler Strouhal - 2X SQ
285 - Josh Rodriguez - 3rd place 07 - 2nd place 08

[Loethen]

There was a Missouri 8th grader last year who beat a High school KS state champ and another that lost be one point to a KS runner up. I saw a MO SQ spank a KS 5th place finisher last weekend-- KS does not impress me. :lol: :D :D

[kcwrestler]

There was a Missouri 8th grader last year who beat a High school KS state champ and another that lost be one point to a KS runner up. I saw a MO SQ spank a KS 5th place finisher last weekend-- KS does not impress me. :lol: :D :D

Possibly one of the weakest posts that I've seen on this forum.

[mat wench]

Look at the source. :smt078

[Chief Renegade]

There was a Missouri 8th grader last year who beat a High school KS state champ and another that lost be one point to a KS runner up. I saw a MO SQ spank a KS 5th place finisher last weekend-- KS does not impress me. :lol: :D :D



1993-2008 Senior Nationals
NATIONAL TITLES PER STATE (Individual)
Ohio (46)
California (32)
New Jersey (27)
Pennsylvania (22)
New York (16)
Oklahoma (10)
Michigan (9)
Illinois (8)
Utah (7)
Indiana (6)
Kansas (6)
Virginia (6)
Maryland (5)
Wisconsin (5)
Arizona (4)

[Chief Renegade]

...

[mosrwrestler]

Where do you get your stats Chief? Are these from Fargo? or when it was held at the Topeka Dome? just wondering....
Mac Bailey 2x
Zach Bailey 1x
Scott O'Donnell
Alan Waters 2X
Justin Forrest 2x
some others from St. Louis
Ethan Kyle ?
Kephart multi?
OTHERS?

[fudge tunnel]

Where do you get your stats Chief? Are these from Fargo? or when it was held at the Topeka Dome? just wondering....
Mac Bailey 2x
Zach Bailey 1x
Scott O'Donnell
Alan Waters 2X
Justin Forrest 2x
some others from St. Louis
Ethan Kyle ?
Kephart multi?
OTHERS?

1993-2008 Senior Nationals

[fudge tunnel]

MO's had 3 Senior Nationals national champs...
2000 - 189 lbs. Scott Barker
2000 - 119 lbs. Dustin Brewer
2007 - 215 lbs. Deron Winn

and 4 other finalists...
1997 - 112 lbs. Greg Linhart, Boonville-2nd
1998 - 112 lbs. TJ Hill, Farmington-2nd
2002 - 215 lbs. Chase Verdoorn, Platte County-2nd
2008 - 189 lbs. Brent Haynes-2nd

[Jhambrick]

any teams looking to bring a 160 pounder that doesnt have one please contact me (jobi hambrick)
660-232-0674 or 660-232-1576
or pm me back thanks

[ZumwaltWest]

Who are the other teams in this?

[Chief Renegade]

Last year's results... 10 teams were entered.

Final Results:
Pool A (Red)
1) Team Kansas (4-0)
2) Team Central-PH (3-1)
3) Spartan WC (2-2)
4) KC Matside Blue (1-3)
5) Tiger Pit (0-4)

Pool B (Black)
1) Victory-OP (4-0)
2) Team County Elite (3-1)
3) Mid Missouri Central (2-2)
4) Sun Tzu (1-3)
5) KC Matside Red (0-4)

A1 vs. B1 / Team Kansas 26 - Victory-OP 38
A2 vs. B2 / Team Central-PH 38 - Team Co. Elite 32
A3 vs. B3 / Spartan WC 35 - Mid Missouri Central 31
A4 vs. B4 / KC Matside Blue WBFor over Sun Tzu

Team Champion - Victory-Oak Park
Team 2nd Place - Team Kansas
Team 3rd Place - Team Central-PH
Team 4th Place - Team County Elite
Team 5th Place - Spartan WC
Team 6th Place - Mid Missouri Central
Team 7th Place - KC Matside Blue

Individual Champions:
98 - Ken Ornelas, KC Matside Blue
105 - Alan Waters, Team Central-PH
112 - Nathan Furches, Team Kansas
119 - Donte Butler, Team County Elite
125 - Jake Tannenbaum, Team Kansas
130 - Mac Bailey, Victory-OP
135 - Vito Krischke, Team Central-PH
140 - Greg Amos, Team County Elite
145 - Dylan Joiner, Victory-OP
152 - Shane Nay, Victory-OP
160 - Brad Dieckhaus, Spartan WC
171 - Marcus Armato, Victory-OP
189 - Brent Haynes, Victory-OP
215 - Deron Winn, Victory-OP
285 - Dom Bradley, Team Central-PH

[Chief Renegade]

Any other rosters out there?

[Chief Renegade]

A few changes to Team Kansas. Might be a few more after this weekend. Any other rosters???????


98 - Isaac Ruiz - State Champion 08/Zach Vesta - Kids State Champion 07
105 - Jeff Vesta - State Champion 07
112 - Nathan Furches - State Champion 06
119 - Sharky Slyter - State Champion 07
125 - Ryne Cokeley - State Champion 08
130 - Trison Graham - State Champion 05-06-07-08
135 - CJ Napier - State Champion 07-08
140 - Kendric Maple - State Champion 08
145 - Chase Nelson - State Champion 07-08
152 - Chris Watson - State Champion 08
160 - Kyle Detmer - State Champion 07
171 - Tyler Koehn - State Champion 07
189 - Romero Cotton - State Champion 05-06-07-08
215 - Kyle Caylor - State Champion 08/Tyler Strouhal - 2X SQ
285 - Steve Andrus - State Champion 07

[zoubus]

heard victory will not have a team, boys haven't been to practice for a couple of weeks.

[kcwrestler]

I guess they shouldn't have posted the Kansas roster. I wonder if Victory didn't want to change their name to runner-up?

[fudge tunnel]

heard victory will not have a team, boys haven't been to practice for a couple of weeks.

Someone told me that most of them quit and/or are going to other teams.....

[Chief Renegade]

That would be too bad to miss those match-ups:

Slyter/Tyler
Cokeley/Bintliff
Napier/Bailey
Nelson/Joiner
Watson/Green
Detmer/Hall
Koehn/Armato
Caylor/Kono
Andrus/Madison

I sure hope Randy rallies the troops and defends their title from 2007!

[fudge tunnel]

Napier/Bailey


Napier will pin Bailey....

[RP-in-Nebraska]

I guess they shouldn't have posted the Kansas roster. I wonder if Victory didn't want to change their name to runner-up?

I think they were just tired of beating up on the KS boys from last year's PH duals and this year's MO-KAN Classic. :-) The majority of the Victory club was from one high school, KS sent their best from the entire state and still came up short. At least the KS wrestlers can breathe easily this weekend.

[Chief Renegade]

You overstepped on that one RP. You are correct about the Oak Park strength of Victory but not very close about the best Kansas had to offer. The last I heard, Victory WILL be wrestling Saturday.

Last year's team:

98 - Jeff Vesta
105 - Sharky Slyter
112 - Nathan Furches
119 - Nathan McCormick
125 - Jake Tanenbaum
130 - Trison Graham
135 - Tyler Caldwell
140 - Aldon Isenberg
145 - Adam Almaguer
152 - Garret Fausset
160 - Cameron Riojas
171 - Phil Witt
189 - Gage Deere
215 - Clinton Bruce
285 - Atticus Disney

Cotton, Koehn, Detmer, Bach and Boaz Beard would not have hurt this team.

[iceman1959]

Can someone please tell me what time the duals, start on Saturday?

[Chief Renegade]

The Duals start at 9:30 Saturday.

[Chief Renegade]

I can't confirm it, but I think there will be 6 teams in a RR.

Team Central - PH
Victory - OP
Sun Tzu
Tiger Pit
Team County Elite
Team Kansas

[Loethen]

What strikes me as funny--

Kansas has to bring an all star team from the whole state to try to beat misouri teams that are coming from maybe 3 or 4 high schools. i am sure team KS will win -- but heck if MO brought an all state team and entered it, they would crush KS and everbody else. Last year a Missouri HS (as much as I hate to say it-- OP) beat the allstar KS team.

[STLFan]

Is team county elite FZW? I heard they were bringing a team along with FHC. There's supposedly 10, so who knows the others?

[spladleu]

Combat Wrestler--- It's official... your a complete idiot...

[Chief Renegade]

Missouri - 5,878,415
Kansas - 2,775,997


This Kansas team will be without McCormick, Isenberg, Caldwell, Fisher, Elliott, Cotton and Disney. It's not that funny after all, huh CW? Despite Kansas being half the size, a true Kansas/Missouri Dual would be close, I can assure you.

[ZumwaltWest]

County Elite will not have a team at Park Hill. We will have a team for the next weekend in Illinois though.

[MIC]

spladleu we all know who combat is but if you are going to call somebody names have the balls to post with your real name.

[Loethen]

I don't think it would be that close.

But anyway, Spladleu what about my statement is wrong, instead of calling names, please point out my logical error. By the way when did you take back your statement about "the best perfromance in the history of South west MO wrestling", Also you can aplogize for cursing at my kid in a previous post also. (or you can congrat him for finishing 2nd as a Freshman, I guess its easier to curse at a kid than congrat him). But I would bet you never even placed in state (esp if you espouse that silling gimmick move the spladle)

V/R

Ryan

[kcwrestler]

Combat,

Re-think that one. Any way you look at this dual, it would be close. In fact, I believe Kansas wins 9 or 10 weights. You guys can't win 125, 160, 171 and 215. Kansas can't win only 285 and possibly 135, although Napier has a real shot at Bailey. The other nine weights could go either way. In my opinion Kansas wins 103, 140, 152 and 189.

103 - Ornelas/Brewer
112 - Furches/Waters
119 - Keller/Mango
125 - Keller/Greco
130 - Maple/Pierce
135 - Napier/Bailey
140 - Isenberg/Lester
145 - Caldwell/Joiner
152 - Detmer/St. Louis
160 - Koehn/Chionuma
171 - Beard/Neely
189 - Cotton/Haynes
215 - Bach/Toney
285 - Disney/Madison

[Loethen]

I don't know if thats the line up I would go with.

I would have James, friedley at 125 or Colbey Skaggs (remeber Skaggs as an 8th grader beat his KS kid last year Furches I believe, but I am not 100% i know he won, and it was a KS state placer based on your line up it would be furches). Tannebaum a KS state placer also only beat another MO 8th grader by one 1 point (6-4 ,4-6, 6-5)

You are also over looking some other kids. I would try to get Meyer or Bounus in.

But back to my orginal point, I am glad KS is bringing an all star team, I am happy it will be great competition. Just when they win (and they should) bear in mind it is a whole state (2 mil plus) vs Sun Tzu (100,000 about), Tiger Pit (Neveda, ozark and Bolivar 34,000) PH (they bring in alot of O/s kids so I won't hazard a guess, I am not sure about victory either). So i don't want to hear any Jay hawk war hoops, or victory crys or any of that--

I will give KS some credit though-- The best T shirt at the MO KS game was from the KS side it said John Brown -- keeping KS safe from MO for 150 years. I wish some one at Mizzou had a bloddy bill anderson, or Quantrels raiders theme going or maybe even Frank and Jesse. But I guess KS must have a better history dept.


Hey an S -- RP made the same point I did, is he an idiot also

[fudge tunnel]

By the way when did you take back your statement about "the best perfromance in the history of South west MO wrestling"

I believe Spladleu was referring to someone making the prediction that Eric Hughes, Alex Hughes, and Josh Moffett could all win state. Looking back, Spladleu's statement was on target. Why would he have to take it back?

[Loethen]

His satement was cleary towards the prediction of the placers in the post above the bolivar post (with the predic of 7 SWMO champs--- when asked if he meant the statement you just made he was silent.---- as you can see 6 out of 7 were right on.


119 Davis Monett True
125 Skaggs Seneca True
140 Bounous Monett True
145 Meyer Monett True
189 Daniels Nevada True
215 Hearda Nevada (2nd)
285 noblitt republic True


I don't care becuase he or maybe she is a tool and a coward anyway. he talks about sportmanship in one posts and curses at a 14yr old in another, like so many of the hidden brave on this board.

It is easy to be brave behind castle walls
--- Old Welsh Proverb

[parrotfran]

The post about Hughes, Hughes, and Moffett having a shot at winning state wasn' t so far fetched. It didn't say they would win. They finished third, second, and fourth respectively. Eric only lost his first match and Alex lost in the final to Skaggs who is a great wrestler who Alex beat a week before.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Hey an S -- RP made the same point I did, is he an idiot also

Yes! :D

[Chief Renegade]

I don't know if thats the line up I would go with.

I would have James, friedley at 125 or Colbey Skaggs (remeber Skaggs as an 8th grader beat his KS kid last year Furches I believe, but I am not 100% i know he won, and it was a KS state placer based on your line up it would be furches). Tannebaum a KS state placer also only beat another MO 8th grader by one 1 point (6-4 ,4-6, 6-5)

You are also over looking some other kids. I would try to get Meyer or Bounus in.

But back to my orginal point, I am glad KS is bringing an all star team, I am happy it will be great competition. Just when they win (and they should) bear in mind it is a whole state (2 mil plus) vs Sun Tzu (100,000 about), Tiger Pit (Neveda, ozark and Bolivar 34,000) PH (they bring in alot of O/s kids so I won't hazard a guess, I am not sure about victory either). So i don't want to hear any Jay hawk war hoops, or victory crys or any of that--

I will give KS some credit though-- The best T shirt at the MO KS game was from the KS side it said John Brown -- keeping KS safe from MO for 150 years. I wish some one at Mizzou had a bloddy bill anderson, or Quantrels raiders theme going or maybe even Frank and Jesse. But I guess KS must have a better history dept.


Hey an S -- RP made the same point I did, is he an idiot also


Combat,

We make an effort to bring the best team we can. This one has plenty of talent, but to say that's it's our best team from the entire State is not true. Again, we will be WITHOUT Nathan McCormick, Jake Tanenbaum, Aldon Isenberg, Tyler Caldwell, Brent Fisher, Kyle Detmer, Romero Cotton and Atticus Disney. For you to throw out 2 million vs. just a few High Schools seems like a wierd way to cover your bases. That dual team listed above is MUCH CLOSER to a true border dual. Do you really think it wouldn't be a close match? Keller can beat any 125 you put in the line-up.

Eric Johnson
"Chief Renegade"

[fudge tunnel]

Napier has a real shot at Bailey

Yes, of course he does...

[fudge tunnel]

Keller can beat any 125 you put in the line-up.


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b371/fudgetunnel12345/ok.jpg

[Chief Renegade]

Everybody gets 5 Duals! Should be a great time.

Team Central - PH
Victory - OP
Sun Tzu
Spartan - STL
Tiger Pit - SW MO
Team Kansas

[Holdem]

kcwrestler you are wrong about some of your pick's : Brewer win 103 , i believe Hayne's has beaten Cotton 3 out of 4 times so i believe Haynes would win and Neeley could very easily win .

[kcwrestler]

Holdem,

Ornelas beat Brewer at the PH duals last year. Haynes/Cotton is always a great match. Beard would beat Neely 10 out of 10 in Folkstyle and with two weeks of par tare instruction, FS would be the same.

FT...... That is a hilarious picture. Well done!

[kcwrestler]

PARK HILL DUAL RESULTS!

Rd. 1 - Team Kansas - 60 Sun Tzu - 9
Rd. 2 - Team Kansas - 46 Spartans - 18
Rd. 3 - Team Kansas - 57 Tiger Pit - 9
Rd. 4 - Team Kansas - 37 Park Hill - 27
Rd. 5 - Team Kansas - 40 Victory OP - 20

You guys have a premier event going at Park Hill! Bryan Elam and Jason Keck did a great job today and there were many fantastic matches!

Six Kansas Wrestlers went undefeated:

119 - Sharky Slyter - 5-0
125 - Ryne Cokeley - 5-0
130 - Trison Graham - 5-0
152 - Chris Watson - 5-0
160 - Tyler Koehn - 5-0
HWT - Steve Andrus - 5-0

[Chief Renegade]

An Intense weekend at Park Hill ! Bryam Elam, Jason Keck and the Park Hill group did a great job again at what has become a staple event between State and the Dual events.

I will have to say after taking a step back from the anxiety of the reffing situation, I appreciated his demeanor through it all. We can all agree that it was never a question of bias either. Both sides had legitimate concerns, but if anything the ref should be congratulated for keeping his cool.

Marquee match-ups did not disappoint! Waters/Tyler, Furches/Waters, Slyter/Tyler, Slyter/Skaggs, Cokeley/Harrison, Graham/James, Napier/Bailey, Napier/Wilbourn, Wilbourn/Bailey, Bailey/Friedley, Nelson/Amos, Maple/Friedley, Maple/Bintliff, Madison/Diekhaus, Andrus/Diekhaus, Koehn/Green and many others.

Way to go Team Central. Congrats to Team Kansas. Can't wait till the Duals!

[Greg]

Does anyone have the scores of the Napier-Bailey-Friedley-Wilbourn matches?

[Chief Renegade]

Napier moved up a weight to wrestle Bailey and Wilbourn.

Bailey beat Napier, 2-3, 1-0, 1-0

Napier beat Wilbourn, 0-5, 1-0, 3-0

Bailey won a close one against Wilbourn also.

[Greg]

Thanks.

[granted]

Congrats to Thomas Bowen from PH for beating double Cadet National champ Kyle Caylor from Kansas! Thomas was a SQ at 215 this year, and beat Caylor in 3 periods.

[granted]

...

[RP-in-Nebraska]

So, based on only the kids that were there, if we had:

Team MO vs. Team KS

98 Wood (MO) dec Vesta
105 Dixon (MO) dec J. Vesta
112 Waters (MO) dec Furches
119 Slyter (KS) dec Tyler
125 Cokely (KS) dec Hagerty
130 Graham (KS) dec James
135 Friedley (MO) WBF Maple
140 Bailey (MO) dec Napier
145 Amos (MO) dec Nelson
152 Watson (KS) dec Buffa
160 Koehn (KS) dec Green
171 Spartan (MO) WBF Hinkley
189 Haynes (MO) WBF Long
215 Bowen (MO) dec Caylor
275 Andrus (KS) dec Diekhaus

9 match wins (3 falls) for team MO vs 6 match wins for team KS (no falls).
I'll assume that Freestyle/Greco is scored the same as HS (I don't know?) then that would be 36-18 in favor of Team MO.

Just a little hypothetical dual.

:smt004

[granted]

The team scoring is NOT the same for free/folk. For example: 285 - Andrus (KS) dec. Dieckhaus 2-1, 3-1 KS would get 3 team points for the dec. and MO would get 1 team point because Dieckhaus scored during the match. A fall is 5 team pts to the winner, with no team points going to the loser. A tech is 4, but with the possibility of the loser getting a team point if they score during the match. So even if you get teched, it is important to at least score a takedown (or anything for that matter) for you team to get 1 team point, even if you lose the match (i.e. 7-1, 6-0). Basically, don't get shutout/pinned and your team scores.

This is the scoring to my understanding, but maybe someone else can explain it clearer...

[Jay]

Combined round of MO's best vs. KS best: Kansas - 22 Missouri- 36

98 - 0-8|0-5 Skylar Wood (PH/MO) dec. Vesta 3-0 MO
105 - 1-2|3-7 Bricker Dixon (PH/MO) dec. J. Vesta 6-1 MO
112 - 5-1|2-3|1-0 Waters (PH/MO) dec. Furches 9-2 MO
119 - 2-6|3-1|8-4 Slyter (KS) dec. Tyler (V/MO) 10-5 MO
125 - 2-2|7-5 Cokeley (KS) dec. Hagerty (PH/MO) 11-8 MO
130 - 7-5|2-2 Graham (KS) dec. James (SP/MO) 12-11 MO
135 - 6-7|8-2, WBF Friedley (PH/MO) WBF Maple (KS) 17-11 MO
140 - 2-3|1-0|1-0 Bailey (V/MO) dec. Napier (KS) 20-12 MO
145 - 4-4|4-6|5-2 Amos (PH/MO) dec. Nelson (KS) 23-13 MO
152 - 6-3|4-1 Watson (KS) dec. Buffa (SP/MO) 24-16 MO
160 - 5-0|4-1 Koehn (KS) dec. ?? (SP/MO) 25-19 MO
171 - 2-0 WBF Doty(SP/MO) WBF Hinckley (KS) 30-19 MO
189/215 - WBF Haynes (V/MO) WBF Caylor (KS) 35-19 MO
285 - 2-1|3-1 Andrus (KS) dec. Dieckhaus (SP/MO) 36-22 MOI think this may be what RP intended, a 14 pt. win of MO's best over this good team from KS.
However there are several good wrestlers missing from both sides.

but still nearly a three fall difference is significant, though not worth the screen space it occupies.

[kcwrestler]

Isaac Ruiz was the 98 pounder from Kansas and he went 3-0. He pins Zack Vesta and would beat Wood. The bottom line was the 2nd place team lost to Kansas by 20 points. A Kansas team without McCormick, Tanenbaum, Isenberg, Caldwell, Fisher, Detmer, Elliott, Cotton and Disney. A dual between the top wrestlers from both sides would be extremely close and I predict Kansas would win. Oh wait..... The Junior Duals are just over 5 weeks away. I guess we'll find out. See you guys in OKC.

[Greg]

If you are going to base your assessment of Kansas-Missouri on national dual tournament performances, then I think your prediction is off base. This year's group of Missouri juniors have had the following placements at Freestyle National Duals:

SB 1st year: 6th
SB 2nd year: 2nd
Cad 1st year: 1st
Cad 2nd year: 2nd
Jun 1st year: 2nd

Those years included numerous wins over Kansas. I do not believe the Kansas teams' placement performance comes anywhere close to those levels.

Also I could be off base, but I do not remember Kansas beating Missouri even once during any of those tournaments.

[Chief Renegade]

No doubt that Missouri has a tough Junior team. I expect both Kansas and Missouri in the top 8 in OKC, if not the top 5.

This dual would be fun:

98 - Ruiz/Wood
105 - Ornelas/ Jetton
112 - Furches/Waters
119 - Slyter/Tyler
125 - Tanenbaum/Forrest
130 - Graham/Bintliff
135 - Napier/Bailey
140 - Isenberg/Amos
145 - Caldwell/Joiner
152 - Fisher/Lester
160 - Koehn/Hall
171 - Elliott/Armato
189 - Cotton/Haynes
215 - Caylor/Kono
285 - Disney/Madison

In my opinion, this dual goes 8-7 either way.

[ZumwaltWest]

Not that I have anything to do with what weights they will go but....I would think our team would move Forest to 119, add Wisdom at 125, Mac goes to 130 and Nick Lester fits in pretty good at 135. Another thought would be Kyle Bradley at 130 and Mac stays at 135. We would have a few options I guess. Just my thoughts….

[mat wench]

Not to take anything away from the other wrestlers you mentioned but if Mac doesn't wrestle Napier missouri won't win that match.

[ZumwaltWest]

I would disagree but that is why they wrestle the matches... I just wouldn't count Nick out of any match!!!

[Greg]

Napier beat Matt very close last summer at Junior Duals and at the time Nick was a way better Freestyler (not so sure about now). Nick took 6th at Juniors Fargo last year in a very tough bracket, I don't think Napier is beyond him.