Oak Park Argument for Number 1 in the Nation.

[Southern_Hospitality]

The question was brought up on the illinois matmen message board if anybody in the nation can take down Orland Park (Sandburg) Illinois. I see alot of people agruing that Blair Academy and St. Edwards are possible the only two teams taking Sanburg down. However, after seeing Oak Park dominate the Granite City tournament, I believe Oak Park could take Sanburg down and shut up the cocky people from Chicago for once. Oak Park still dominated the tournament with three of their starters out. I mention Oak Park and just got ignore so I am just asking what everybody take on Oak Park possibly being the number 1 team in the nation with their full lineup

[Brady]

I can see them taking down Sandburg Illinois but against Blair Academy im not sure. I can defintely see Oak Park being the top in the nation.

[wrestlefan19]

I can see them taking down Sandburg Illinois but against Blair Academy im not sure. I can defintely see Oak Park being the top in the nation.

Huh?
your not sure they can take down Blair academy but you Definetely see them being tops in the nation?

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Just for fun:

Intermat top 10

1 Blair Academy (N.J.)
2 St. Edward (Ohio)
3 Carl Sandburg (Ill.)
4 Oak Park (Mo.)
5 Christiansburg (Va.)
6 Bishop Lynch (Texas)
7 Archbishop Moeller (Ohio)
8 Graham (Ohio)
9 Great Bridge (Va.)
10 Upper Perkiomen (Pa.)

Amateur Wrestling News top 10

1. Blair Academy N.J.
2. St. Edward Ohio
3. Carl Sandburg Ill.
4. Upper Perkiomen Pa.
5. Christiansburg Va.
6. Cincinnati Moeller Ohio
7. Oak Park Mo.
8. Great Bridge Va.
9. Montini Ill.
10. St. Paris Graham Ohio

[Louden]

I wish we could see Oak Park in action against these top teams when they are at full strength. That would be something.

[Bob Pollock]

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Unfortunately, it will be without Zach. What other OP starters are seniors?

Hall? Kono? Koelling? Bradshaw?

[deepfat]

I wish we could see Oak Park in action against these top teams when they are at full strength. That would be something.

Not too be a black cloud here but you have to understand the climate of wrestling in other states. I've had the opportunity to see/coach kids in states like California, Virginia, Washington, Oregon where wrestling is huge. In California, for instance, the talent pool is so vast and deep that kids who win state in Missouri or Illinois are in some cases a 5th-6th place finisher there at best. California wrestling is a sight to see and I absolutely love Missouri wrestling. Oregon kids are really tough as well. I call Oregon "the Iowa of the west" only because the state is full of small schools that live and breathe wrestling.

That said, Oak Park vs. any of the schools ranked above them would be a sweet thing to see. I think OP at full strength could hang with anyone.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Last year at Senior Nationals, Ryan Moyer (3A 125 LB champ of Park Hill) and Mark Ellis (3A 215 LB champ of Ray-Pec) each beat a California state champ. The kid that Ellis beat was ranked 2nd in the nation, if I'm not mistaken.

[Bob Pollock]

[urpinned]

(Unfortunately, it will be without Zach. What other OP starters are seniors?

Hall? Kono? Koelling? Bradshaw?) J.Nay, Koelling,Gleason,Bradshaw

[RP-in-Nebraska]

So, Kono and Hall will be back next year?

Nevermind, you just answered it in your edited post.

[Bob Pollock]

[deepfat]

Last year at Senior Nationals, Ryan Moyer (3A 125 LB champ of Park Hill) and Mark Ellis (3A 215 LB champ of Ray-Pec) each beat a California state champ. The kid that Ellis beat was ranked 2nd in the nation, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not saying that the Cali kids are invincible. :D

However, due to population alone the talent pool is much larger obviously.

I've always wondered where Mo. ranked as a wrestling state compared to the others. I doubt that we are as deep as Ohio, Iowa, or Pennsylvania realistically. I think that until wrestling is as good in the St. Louis area as it is in KC we will not have that depth as a state.

[mat wench]

Deepfat I think you have been in the oil to long! Mo. boys just proved to the nation this summer that wrestling is alive and strong in the great state of Mo. With wins over Pa.,Wa,Ca.,Nj. and to many more to list. Oak Park had 5 or 6 boys on the Freestyle and Greco teams that took 1st and 2nd in the nation! I feel we are at or within striking distance of any state.

[The Governor]

This conversation is ridiculous, there is nothing magic in the water in certain states, California doesnt have a special food additive, and Ohio doesnt posess the Holy Grail of wrestling. These kids are kids from coast to coast, it is simply a mathematical solution of population, more kids, more wrestlers. I would put Deron Winn, Louis Caputo, Taylor Moore or Peter Miller (and the list goes on) all from the midwest up against anyone from anywhere at anytime. Its about hard work, dedication, personal toughness and some god given talent. Nothing to do with where you are born.

[mat wench]

Well said Gov.

[The Governor]

Thanks Wench just given em pearls.

[deepfat]

This conversation is ridiculous, there is nothing magic in the water in certain states, California doesnt have a special food additive, and Ohio doesnt posess the Holy Grail of wrestling. These kids are kids from coast to coast, it is simply a mathematical solution of population, more kids, more wrestlers. I would put Deron Winn, Louis Caputo, Taylor Moore or Peter Miller (and the list goes on) all from the midwest up against anyone from anywhere at anytime. Its about hard work, dedication, personal toughness and some god given talent. Nothing to do with where you are born.

I'm not disagreeing with you Gov. What I'm saying is that a state like California and Ohio who are more populated are deeper in talent for obvious reasons. Simply put, in Mo. there are some lesser talented kids that make it to state. In California and Ohio, the state brackets are deep with talent. There are kids that don't medal in those states that would push for a top 4 in Mo.

I'm not trying to turn this into a "this state is better than ours" deal because I don't necessarily think so. I'm just giving you and opinion based on what I've seen first hand. Take it for what it's worth.

[deepfat]

This conversation is ridiculous, there is nothing magic in the water in certain states, California doesnt have a special food additive, and Ohio doesnt posess the Holy Grail of wrestling. These kids are kids from coast to coast, it is simply a mathematical solution of population, more kids, more wrestlers. I would put Deron Winn, Louis Caputo, Taylor Moore or Peter Miller (and the list goes on) all from the midwest up against anyone from anywhere at anytime. Its about hard work, dedication, personal toughness and some god given talent. Nothing to do with where you are born.

I'm not disagreeing with you Gov. What I'm saying is that a state like California and Ohio who are more populated are deeper in talent for obvious reasons. Simply put, in Mo. there are some lesser talented kids that make it to state. In California and Ohio, the state brackets are deep with talent. There are kids that don't medal in those states that would push for a top 4 in Mo.

I'm not trying to turn this into a "this state is better than ours" deal because I don't necessarily think so. I'm just giving you and opinion based on what I've seen first hand. Take it for what it's worth.

[The Governor]

I agree, thats pretty much what I said, but the cream of the crop is still the cream of the crop. Lets open a new argument and discuss why Oak Parks Program is so good. Can you say (recruit much). The tactics of Oak Park are the same ones our Div 1 Colleges and Universities are being chastized for. I would like to know how many of their wrestlers were shipped in, even going as far as allowing kids from other districts to live with families in the district so they can wrestle. I know of a couple of these personally. Brings other words to mind like MSHAA, Rules, Ethics and oh what the heck did someone say Steroids. Have fun with this one!

[wrestlefan19]

wow way to be classless =D>

[Frank Castle]

why is the oak park program is so good :roll: (competitorswrestling.org ) 7xmissouri state team titles all most 40 Individual national titles and over 60 indvidual youth state champs .

[Rick Williams]

Those are pretty strong words Gov...I tell you what I live close to you and would love to sit down and discuss that one on one...I have a feeling you are speaking a little out of line...

[Karen Kono]

I can give you a qualified response to this one... at least where my son is concerned. Kolton was born and breed in the OP district. He's never lived anywhere but here. Oh, and he also happens to live with both of his natural parents. (rare, I know, but it's true) I'm sure you can tell by looking at him, he's never touched a steroid in his life. I don't know where that idea came from. None of the kids on this team would need to stoop to that. They get whatever they've got by nothing other than hard work, commitment and great coaching. These kids have lived this since they were very, very young. That's all there is to it.
As for recruiting, kids and their parents want to come to this program. They come here not just for the winning record, but for the great coaching and the incredible support from the families. Nobody recruits them. The old addage comes to mind....." if you build it, they will come."

[Bob Pollock]

[MG_Grievous]

I agree, thats pretty much what I said, but the cream of the crop is still the cream of the crop. Lets open a new argument and discuss why Oak Parks Program is so good. Can you say (recruit much). The tactics of Oak Park are the same ones our Div 1 Colleges and Universities are being chastized for. I would like to know how many of their wrestlers were shipped in, even going as far as allowing kids from other districts to live with families in the district so they can wrestle. I know of a couple of these personally. Brings other words to mind like MSHAA, Rules, Ethics and oh what the heck did someone say Steroids. Have fun with this one!


Oh I see. (http://missouriwrestling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5012)

[Rick Williams]

Mac...wrestled for competitors for about 4yrs

Marty...wrestled for competitors for about 4yrs and then his family moved...seems to be a move

Joe Joe...wrestled for competitors for about...hum...as long time

Jacob...wrestled for competitors for along time...moved his freshmen year...seems to have been a good move

Scott...competitors

Dylan...competitors

Zach...moved in as a freshmen...Love the central kids and coaches...but do you think if he is your kid you would not have made the same move that Donny did...I could go on...but I won't

Shane...competitors

Mathew...competitors

Ray...moved in...I guess his parents saw something they liked in the opportunity that him being at Oak Park presented...Doing whats best for their child...humm...

Haynes...competitors and then moved his freshmen year

Kono...well Karen answered that one

Bradshaw...competitors

Elijah...moved in...

See a pattern...I forgot one Tyler St. Louis my boy and he is at Platte Co. but still bleeds Competitors...love you Tyler...


competitors has worked really hard to develop young men into exactly what they are now. One thing they I admire about the coaches there is there willingness to coach other peoples kids as hard as they(we) coach our own. I ask you to ask kids like Gags, Weist, Deron, and many others who we have had the pleasure of working with if we ever once were recruited by Oak Park coaches...I am confident in that answer...

Winning recruits...Caring about kids recruits...Which beats having to cheat and offer cars and money and whatever else people think...

My parents moved us to Oak Park for a better opportunity and it worked...and many other parents have made the same choice since then...Oak Park is fortunate to have that problem...Instead of thinking that something has to be wrong, why not work as hard as they have to build your own...(obviously not speaking to all of those of you who are, because that is the majority of you)...

We are proud of the "PROGRAM" that we have build and God willing will continue to build...We are fortunate to have so many who give back to the program...and like it or not people want to be a part of those types of things..."WINNING" recruits more than anything and our goal always has been to win and no not at any cost...Randy and I coached with Keck a few years ago...We loved it you know why his program and the Park Hill program is successful because he is passionate about coaching and he does not care what team the kid is from...

Sorry for the soap box...but some people man drive me nuts about a sport that means so much to me ...I could go on but I am sure I have put my foot in my mouth already....

[wrestlefan19]

...I could go on but I am sure I have put my foot in my mouth already....

far from it...nice post

[The Governor]

I told you to have fun with this one. It has been my experience that when you say things that hit somewhere near the truth it upsets people. I have four children, three who have wrestled, youth and High School, I have coached and volunteered. If you dont think that substance abuse is not huge in our schools then you better wake up. If a pro athelete gets caught using steroids they end up on the evening news. Yet many of our High School coaches watch it go on right in their own locker rooms.
Too touchy of a subject, no one wants to address it, but if you had a mandatory piss test at state you would eliminate 30% of the wrestlers there. Chew on that for a while.

[Rick Williams]

So now it is all kids from all over the state using steroids...please make up your mind as to who you are going to point your finger for winning...why everyone else wins...it would be easy to hit close to your home but its not worth it...you have seen my offer...if you have confidence that you are correct lets hook up and you can convince me as well...

[deepfat]

I told you to have fun with this one. It has been my experience that when you say things that hit somewhere near the truth it upsets people. I have four children, three who have wrestled, youth and High School, I have coached and volunteered. If you dont think that substance abuse is not huge in our schools then you better wake up. If a pro athelete gets caught using steroids they end up on the evening news. Yet many of our High School coaches watch it go on right in their own locker rooms.
Too touchy of a subject, no one wants to address it, but if you had a mandatory piss test at state you would eliminate 30% of the wrestlers there. Chew on that for a while.

As far as steroids go, there is an issue in high school across America. As far as whether the OP wrestlers are involved in that I won't say and I really doubt it.

As far as recruiting goes, I've always thought it was ridiculous for parents to move their kids into a school for a sport alone. After sports, it's quality education that carries an individual. MSHSAA cannot do anything about this and it's unfortunate. It's because of this "recruitment" that schools are able to build these empires and really alter the competitiveness of sports around the state.

Oak Park will go into a slump like the other great schools around the state have (Oak Grove, Helias, SCW). It's the natural cycle of things.

OP obviously has great coaching and a great farm system. You can never knock a program for having both.

[The Governor]

Deepfat, I think you got my point.

[oxman]

Rick---You are really funny..... :)
I think your idea of discussing this issue would be a nice high-arching throw followed by a knuckle-sandwich....
"Come into my web" said the spider to the fly.....
8)

[Rick Williams]

"As far as recruiting goes, I've always thought it was ridiculous for parents to move their kids into a school for a sport alone. After sports, it's quality education that carries an individual."

I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand parents wanting whats best for their kids...Oak Park has a quality education...and the education in many cases is achieved by the result of the sport...is that so hard to get...do you actually think Zach would be at the same level had he not came to Oak Park...if you think I am crazy ask Donny...He could have achieved it at places other than OP...but never the less it was OP...I am shocked that you would think of it as ridiculous for a parent to want what is best for their child...if you have children I would bet you have made some type of sacrifice for them as well...

[wrestlefan19]

:lol:
Governor your steroid allegations are ridiculous
Its a good thing you (out of highschool i assume) know so much of what goes on in highschool!
I am in highschool i think most people know that and I have many friends in many different highschools MANY of whom wrestle some in elite programs even some not in the STL area and though i will admit i know 2 wrestlers who do indeed use steroids....1 of these wrestlers will deffinetely not qualify for state
I think that of the 100+ wrestlers i know (many VERY well) 2 is hardly a majority
you say that 30% would be eliminated if they started mandatory drug tests....cmon you cant be serious like i said 2 out of 100+ hardly = 30%
didnt a couple of schools including FZW have drug tests for a while this year? I know at least one wrestler there was suspected of using the juice(although i find those rumors stupid) and i have yet to hear of any punishment for this wrestler or any other on the team....Rick said Winning recruits more than anything unfortunately for many people winning also Breeds Jealousy and spite....if you have nothing better to do than come on here and accuse people you dont know of things you know nothing about go waste someone elses time

[Denmom]

Years ago, lets say 1998, we moved out of a powerhouse wrestling school. ST Charles West. Did we make a choice to move into another school based on wrestling, not really. We based it on quality of education, where we could find more than a "lot", and wrestling. Those three things were important in our lives and kids lives. So our choice was Wentzville Holt High School which also had a great wrestling program back then. (if it was today, we would probably move into Fort Zumwalt West School. lol) We didn't have a powerhouse high school wrestler but we had kids in the little league wrestling at St. Charles West. (Well, we did have a Freshman that wrestled but he couldn't cut it)

To say it is wrong to move into a school program that has ALL that you are looking for is stupid. You do what is BEST for your kids. My kids didn't look at wrestling as their future income and life. But while they were getting an education, why not be on one of the best teams in your area.

And by the way, our jobs didn't make us move. They stays the same. (yes MG, I did work once upon a time.)

[deepfat]

"As far as recruiting goes, I've always thought it was ridiculous for parents to move their kids into a school for a sport alone. After sports, it's quality education that carries an individual."

I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand parents wanting whats best for their kids...Oak Park has a quality education...and the education in many cases is achieved by the result of the sport...is that so hard to get...do you actually think Zach would be at the same level had he not came to Oak Park...if you think I am crazy ask Donny...He could have achieved it at places other than OP...but never the less it was OP...I am shocked that you would think of it as ridiculous for a parent to want what is best for their child...if you have children I would bet you have made some type of sacrifice for them as well...

Hey, I'll never question a parent doing what's best for their kids. I just find it hard to fathom why some parents would uproot their families just for the point of putting their kids into a good sports program. Are you saying that a kid won't get as much exposure at a school like Winnetonka, Blue Springs, or Park Hill?

It's not so much the families that bother me but the competitive balance that this recruitment creates. Back in the 90's a school in Washington, MO called St. Francis Borgia did this in basketball. They ran the table for a stretch and really made 3A basketball uneventful. That's all I'm saying. Again, there's nothing that can be done so the OP fans should enjoy it and not worry about what others may say.

[Smith]

Gov-- :lol: :lol: your accusations are laughable. I invite you down to our off season weight lifting and season long 6:05 am weigh lifting sessions.

For you to get on here and accuse kids that put in countless hours of hardwork is a joke. Don't be a hater. If you don't like the program so be it but don't stoop so low as too make stupid accusations like steroids.

Jonathan-- can you help with checking his IP address.

[Denmom]

I guess my boys didn't use steriods or they wouldn't have been wrestling 103 and 112 pounds as juniors and seniors. lol

:lol:

[MG_Grievous]

I guess my boys didn't use steriods or they wouldn't have been wrestling 103 and 112 pounds as juniors and seniors. lol

:lol:

Unless they were mIDGETS.

[Denmom]

now now, Chris was one of the tallest 112 lbers his senior year out there.

aren't midgets under 4 foot?

[MG_Grievous]

aren't midgets under 4 foot?

I'm not sure about the height, I just notice the sausage fingers and big heads.

[Rick Williams]

"As far as recruiting goes, I've always thought it was ridiculous for parents to move their kids into a school for a sport alone. After sports, it's quality education that carries an individual."

I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand parents wanting whats best for their kids...Oak Park has a quality education...and the education in many cases is achieved by the result of the sport...is that so hard to get...do you actually think Zach would be at the same level had he not came to Oak Park...if you think I am crazy ask Donny...He could have achieved it at places other than OP...but never the less it was OP...I am shocked that you would think of it as ridiculous for a parent to want what is best for their child...if you have children I would bet you have made some type of sacrifice for them as well...

Hey, I'll never question a parent doing what's best for their kids. I just find it hard to fathom why some parents would uproot their families just for the point of putting their kids into a good sports program. Are you saying that a kid won't get as much exposure at a school like Winnetonka, Blue Springs, or Park Hill?

It's not so much the families that bother me but the competitive balance that this recruitment creates. Back in the 90's a school in Washington, MO called St. Francis Borgia did this in basketball. They ran the table for a stretch and really made 3A basketball uneventful. That's all I'm saying. Again, there's nothing that can be done so the OP fans should enjoy it and not worry about what others may say.

But you kind of did question it by saying it was ridiculous for parents to do it...our whole country is set up with competitive balance problems...my kids play soccer and my youngest plays in a division that does not keep score because there are no losers...but there are...why be afraid of it...losing can teach alot...and who was it uneventful for...the St. Francis Borgia parents enjoyed it...and your right OP should enjoy it while it last...but hopefully we are preparing to make it last as long as possible...through the kids program, in case you are thinking bad thoughts...as for other programs...I have already given kudos to other programs and anyone who knows me knows that I believe other programs are capable of helping kids get better...but are you telling me that some are not better than others...Kids do not always fit one program or another...that is why some move to other schools than OP...Like I said before build your program up so that it can be up when OP is down...

[Greg]

I just got back from the SCW Tournament and noticed the comment about steroids. I have had the privilege to be around the Oak Park coaches, parents, and wrestlers during many summers of wrestling and I can tell you all I have seen is dedication, discipline and doing things the right way. Steroids...ridiculous.

[Rick Williams]

He has changed his tune now...it was to raise awareness not pointing fingers at OP...not worth addressing anymore...

[oxman]

I just got back from the SCW TournamentGreg---Do you have any results from SCW??...Particularly team scores?
My guess is that Eureka is doing well. In my opinion, the tougher the tourney the better Eureka will do... :)
8)

[The Godfather]

Wow...I didn't expect to see a conversation like this when I logged on.

I think it's pretty funny that someone would accuse the Oakies of using steroids...I mean, obviously they couldn't be that good from just working hard. Apparantly anybody that would make that comment hasn't seen the kids on that team. Have you ever seen anybody that has been through a few cycles??? I have, and I can guarantee you that the OP boys are not using.

I just looked at the competitors website and it says that the new head coach for the little league program is Earl Harrison, an all american from Iowa State. How many little league programs (in any state) do you know of that have a college all american coaching them? I think you get my point.

As far as the comments about moving so that your kids can wrestle for a "powerhouse"...I don't necessarily agree with it because of the disadvantage it creates for other schools. However, there are two reasons I don't mind it, if it is really happening.

1) Remember that the #1 advantage of sports in high school is to get a college scholarship. If I'm a college wrestling coach, which teams am I going to look for recruits first? That seems pretty beneficial for a wrestler to walk into a college program and say "I was part of the #4 nationally ranked wrestling team". Any parent that could save approx. $80,000 on 4 years of college by moving their kid into a well coached, nationally ranked program is probably going to do it. Not to mention the college education that those kids could receive if their parents couldn't afford to send them to college.

2) When was the last time Missouri received such recognition for their wrestling? I can't ever remember us shining as a state like we are now. I love the sport of wrestling and am proud that we are beating the best teams from Oklahoma, etc. We are getting respect from these states that we have never had before.

Governor, it really bothers me that you would accuse these kids of using drugs to get better just because you're jealous that the program you support isn't the caliber they are. If you are going to meet with Rick Williams to discuss this, I would like to join in on that arse kicking....err....conversation.

[Greg]

Oxman I can't remember what the teams scores were, but I do know that Hannibal was winning the pool we were in the last time I heard the score. Farmington may have been second but I can't swear to it. I think Eureka can do well at a really big (as in lots and lots of teams) like state because we have 4 or 5 kids that can place very high or win, and a few others who can place, but at smaller tournaments it is hard for us because we have so many young wrestlers in the line-up. Hannibal looks very tough by the way. I can't wait to see the dual for first between them and Park Hill at State.

[DKing]

I have to think I checked out this topic too late. But my oldest wrestled for Kearney, so I think I could be an unbiased participant in the Governor's claims. And as far as recruiting, I can tell you that Tyler Grayson lived just outside the Oak Park district and never once did anyone from Oak Park try to move on anything. They sure would have loved to have him, but I see how they build a quality kids program and that leads right into the HS program. Both are coached at a very good quality level.
Steroids- Wow, if you want to go up two to three weight classes in 3-4 weeks, but since you don't see that, then you can rule it right out. Managing weight and cardiovascular conditioning does not go well with steroids. To top it off, if you watch fairly closely, the program stresses qualities that negate shortcuts and cheating.
BTW, the weather in Baghdad in sunny with a high around 74 (Daily). :-D

[deepfat]

[quote="Rick Williams":70fd1]"As far as recruiting goes, I've always thought it was ridiculous for parents to move their kids into a school for a sport alone. After sports, it's quality education that carries an individual."

I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand parents wanting whats best for their kids...Oak Park has a quality education...and the education in many cases is achieved by the result of the sport...is that so hard to get...do you actually think Zach would be at the same level had he not came to Oak Park...if you think I am crazy ask Donny...He could have achieved it at places other than OP...but never the less it was OP...I am shocked that you would think of it as ridiculous for a parent to want what is best for their child...if you have children I would bet you have made some type of sacrifice for them as well...


Hey, I'll never question a parent doing what's best for their kids. I just find it hard to fathom why some parents would uproot their families just for the point of putting their kids into a good sports program. Are you saying that a kid won't get as much exposure at a school like Winnetonka, Blue Springs, or Park Hill?

It's not so much the families that bother me but the competitive balance that this recruitment creates. Back in the 90's a school in Washington, MO called St. Francis Borgia did this in basketball. They ran the table for a stretch and really made 3A basketball uneventful. That's all I'm saying. Again, there's nothing that can be done so the OP fans should enjoy it and not worry about what others may say.

But you kind of did question it by saying it was ridiculous for parents to do it...our whole country is set up with competitive balance problems...my kids play soccer and my youngest plays in a division that does not keep score because there are no losers...but there are...why be afraid of it...losing can teach alot...and who was it uneventful for...the St. Francis Borgia parents enjoyed it...and your right OP should enjoy it while it last...but hopefully we are preparing to make it last as long as possible...through the kids program, in case you are thinking bad thoughts...as for other programs...I have already given kudos to other programs and anyone who knows me knows that I believe other programs are capable of helping kids get better...but are you telling me that some are not better than others...Kids do not always fit one program or another...that is why some move to other schools than OP...Like I said before build your program up so that it can be up when OP is down...[/quote:70fd1]

Mr. Williams-

Let me clear my point here. I have no problem with OP being a powerhouse that obviously has been built on great coaching, dedication, and a strong parental support. I'm not a "hater" and I wish the student-athletes all the best.

My only point was that for me personally I could not see going through the process of moving just for the sake of going to a better wrestling program. My opinion is that any wrestler with talent is going to thrive almost anywhere with decent coaching. I find it hard to believe that a kid who is a 2 or 3X state champ in Class 1 or 2 is not going to get looked at from colleges.

Take it from a guy who's a 10 year vet in the military and has had to move all over. I absolutely would not move my kid to a district just for the sake of being in a better sports program. I think it sets a bad precedent. If my son ends up having the talent to thrive in wrestling, he will thrive anywhere. Adapt and overcome!

Just one man's opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

[rapidfire]

With steroids you would expect a drastic change in the level of success. Many of the OP kids have excelled at the national level since kids wrestling.

Be careful on throwing around the word "recruitment," which suggests that OP is seeking good wrestlers to move into their area. That is not the case and I can guarantee you. The families are seeking the program because it has earned the respect through consistent success and classy people.

And yes, being from a top level program brings you recognition from the college level. Kids from the OP program develop a high degree of discipline and expectations, etc., which is extremely marketable when it comes to receiving athletic scholarships. MU wrestled Stanford at Oak Park high school for what reason?

[The Godfather]

My opinion is that any wrestler with talent is going to thrive almost anywhere with decent coaching. I find it hard to believe that a kid who is a 2 or 3X state champ in Class 1 or 2 is not going to get looked at from colleges.

deepfat, I agree with your point but why not move your kid into a very well coached program to assure that they will succeed. Settling for a "decent coach" is okay and I'm sure the kid would still do well, but doesn't necessarily learn the discipline and dedication that they would from a program like Oak Park (equivalent to some college programs), nor would they necessarily excel and progress as they would with the Oakies. Wrestling with "the best" everyday in practice definitely improves your game alot more than beating the snot out of a kid everyday in practice (which is typically what happens in a population-lacking Class 1 or 2 school).

I know that Oak Park is not recruiting, but if they were, so be it. My initial reaction to something like that would be that I don't like it because I don't think it's fair to other programs. But then I step back and remember that this is about the kids and their future, so if it was happening, I'm sure those families are making decisions with the best interest of their kids in mind.

This is not directed at you specifically, deepfat, but I think we all need to stop making accusations towards Oak Park and be happy that our fellow Missouri school is having national success. We are gaining respect from other states for our success, and honestly, I like that. I was in Oklahoma for Thanksgiving visiting family and had the opportunity to speak with several people involved in the wrestling community there. I definitely didn't hear the typical "So, how are your Missouri boys doing this season" with the followed up laugh. All I had to say was "look at the national rankings".

[howellfan]

I just graduated hs last year and I can tell you that about 25% of the athletes I met/knew used some sort of "supplement" like Creatin (sp). Another problem with high school athletes is a lot more of them use alcohol. I know of one instance that happened on the FH track team where one of our best kids was almost kicked of the team do to drinking the night before, and I have heard rumors of several kids on the Howell team still drinking during the season.

[The Godfather]

I just graduated hs last year and I can tell you that about 25% of the athletes I met/knew used some sort of "supplement" like Creatin (sp). Another problem with high school athletes is a lot more of them use alcohol. I know of one instance that happened on the FH track team where one of our best kids was almost kicked of the team do to drinking the night before, and I have heard rumors of several kids on the Howell team still drinking during the season.

Creatine is not an illegal suppliment...not something I would recommend using, but there's nothing wrong with it from a medical standpoint. There's a big difference between using steriods and creatine.

You are going to have your typical high school parties where drinking is involved, but most highly respectable programs (including FH), at least as far as wrestling goes, have kids that don't do that during the season. When I was in high school, yes, we drank at parties, but surely not during wrestling season.

[howellfan]

I know of a few kids on the team that did drink during other sports seasons that they were involved in. I am not sure if those same kids drank during wrestling season, but I would feel safe to say that if they did while involved in another sport, it is likely-but not 100 %-that they do it during wrestling season.

[The Godfather]

I know of a few kids on the team that did drink during other sports seasons that they were involved in. I am not sure if those same kids drank during wrestling season, but I would feel safe to say that if they did while involved in another sport, it is likely-but not 100 %-that they do it during wrestling season.

Well, I'm sure the coaches would be happy to address that. Since you've opened your mouth about it on a public forum, maybe you should go share that with them too? :roll:

[howellfan]

I will say that the one incident on the track team involved a very good wrestler from Howell, but I think Malawey already knows who the kid is and has dealt with it already.

[The Godfather]

I know of a few kids on the team that did drink during other sports seasons that they were involved in. I am not sure if those same kids drank during wrestling season, but I would feel safe to say that if they did while involved in another sport, it is likely-but not 100 %-that they do it during wrestling season.

Well, I'm sure the coaches would be happy to address that. Since you've opened your mouth about it on a public forum, maybe you should go share that with them too? :roll:

Basically what I meant was, quit talking about it.

[deepfat]

My opinion is that any wrestler with talent is going to thrive almost anywhere with decent coaching. I find it hard to believe that a kid who is a 2 or 3X state champ in Class 1 or 2 is not going to get looked at from colleges.

deepfat, I agree with your point but why not move your kid into a very well coached program to assure that they will succeed. Settling for a "decent coach" is okay and I'm sure the kid would still do well, but doesn't necessarily learn the discipline and dedication that they would from a program like Oak Park (equivalent to some college programs), nor would they necessarily excel and progress as they would with the Oakies. Wrestling with "the best" everyday in practice definitely improves your game alot more than beating the snot out of a kid everyday in practice (which is typically what happens in a population-lacking Class 1 or 2 school).

I know that Oak Park is not recruiting, but if they were, so be it. My initial reaction to something like that would be that I don't like it because I don't think it's fair to other programs. But then I step back and remember that this is about the kids and their future, so if it was happening, I'm sure those families are making decisions with the best interest of their kids in mind.

This is not directed at you specifically, deepfat, but I think we all need to stop making accusations towards Oak Park and be happy that our fellow Missouri school is having national success. We are gaining respect from other states for our success, and honestly, I like that. I was in Oklahoma for Thanksgiving visiting family and had the opportunity to speak with several people involved in the wrestling community there. I definitely didn't hear the typical "So, how are your Missouri boys doing this season" with the followed up laugh. All I had to say was "look at the national rankings".

Puckett-

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad some of our school and athletes are finally getting national attention. It wasn't too long ago when Mo. was the butt of the jokes in regards to midwest wrestling so it's great that we're closing the gap.

I guess I'm just speaking from a more personal standpoint in regards to moving to a school just for a sports program. I would rather have my son in a school that has a better academic reputation and a lesser wrestling program. At least his education is not suffering and he still gets to compete. Long after wrestling is over the education is still there. It's like I said, good wrestlers are going to be good no matter the situation. I'm sure OP has fine academics and that isn't an issue.

To each his own, I suppose.

[Rick Williams]

Deepfat, you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that...I would however disagree with a few points (talented wrestlers achieveing(sp) with average coaching and the class 1and2 state champ comment), but it is to much to really debate it here...Not that I am right, that is for sure...perhaps we could have a fun discussion soemtime while we are both watching some wrestling...either way Blessings and thank you for protecting our freedom by serving...

[deepfat]

Deepfat, you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that...I would however disagree with a few points (talented wrestlers achieveing(sp) with average coaching and the class 1and2 state champ comment), but it is to much to really debate it here...Not that I am right, that is for sure...perhaps we could have a fun discussion soemtime while we are both watching some wrestling...either way Blessings and thank you for protecting our freedom by serving...

Rick-

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. :)

However, I will take you up on your offer to talk it over at a match somewhere. It's been a while since I've seen some wrestling back in my home state. I'm planning on coming home and watching the Lee's Summit X-Mas tourney next year. I plan on bringing my six year old along to see how the big boys do it!

[Wyatt Pickering]

Rick - The Class 1, Class 2 argument is really pretty simple. The wrestlers sort that stuff out in the summer through freestlye and greco. If you want to go D1 then you are going to have to place or perform well at Fargo, National duals, High School Nationals, ect. If a kid is really good, he is going to be really good no matter what class.

All the OP kids would do great at other programs. However, there is no doubt that the coaching, the level of competition in your room, and your schedule makes really good wrestlers into great wrestlers.

[deepfat]

Rick - The Class 1, Class 2 argument is really pretty simple. The wrestlers sort that stuff out in the summer through freestlye and greco. If you want to go D1 then you are going to have to place or perform well at Fargo, National duals, High School Nationals, ect. If a kid is really good, he is going to be really good no matter what class.

All the OP kids would do great at other programs. However, there is no doubt that the coaching, the level of competition in your room, and your schedule makes really good wrestlers into great wrestlers.

Wyatt-

No arguments here. I especially agree with your second paragraph.

On a side note-I think I met you back in '96 at state when I was a senior and you were a Freshman. I remember being with my coach and he had known you from your little league days.

[Rick Williams]

Rick - The Class 1, Class 2 argument is really pretty simple. The wrestlers sort that stuff out in the summer through freestlye and greco. If you want to go D1 then you are going to have to place or perform well at Fargo, National duals, High School Nationals, ect. If a kid is really good, he is going to be really good no matter what class.

All the OP kids would do great at other programs. However, there is no doubt that the coaching, the level of competition in your room, and your schedule makes really good wrestlers into great wrestlers.

Good points Wyatt...state titles many times do not mean anything to D1 if you have not proven it on the National level...Some states as we all know do not have that problem...

I am not sure if the statement about the OP kids mean if you took them now or if you took them before they came to Competitors or Oak Park...All of our kids as they are would do fine else where...But atleast I want to believe that the practice room and coaching has helped them achieve the level they compete at now as you have stated...Always good to converse with someone who understands...Are you the Wyatt Pickering from Chilicothe???If so, I did not know you personally, but I knew of you through your coach and he had nothing but good things to say about you...

[Wyatt Pickering]

Deepfat - Yes I was a freshman at state in 1996. Hard to believe that was almost ten years ago!!!! Who was your coach?

Rick - I was talking about the Oak Park kids now. I am sure that the Competitors program laid the foundation upon which much of Oak Park's current success is based. I believe a truly good coach is not measured by what he does with the amazing wrestlers, a good coach makes those kids who are average into good wrestlers. I would wager that your coaching staff from Competitors on up does alot of that and I just get to see the finished product at Oak Park High School. I think alot of people think you guys just import the studs, sit on your hands and watch them win state titles....but thats not the case.
I know that I personally improved tremendously when Coach Sherrow came to Chillicothe. I wish that I could have trained in a room like the current OP, or FZW room because one of the limitations of good coaching is it can only take you so far. After that you need other kids in the room who can push you every single day. When you put that coaching together with a tough room and you get a OP or FZW. I commend you on your program, and wish you luck in the future.
I wish I could be back in Columbia for Baily vs Weist, but they have this rule about skipping finals in medical school. How lame!!!!Hahahaha

[John]

As good as Oak Park is they are not as good as Sandburg, St. Edward or Blair Academy. Oak Park won the Granite City tournament against second rate teams in Illinois. No disrespect to Edwardsville and Granite City but these teams cannot hold a candle to Sandburg, St. Rita, Providence Catholic, Glenbard N, Neuqua Valley, Montini or Carl Sandburg. I think Granite City placed 9th or 10th place this weekend at the Geneseo Tournament. Midwest City who lost to Oak Park 36-19 lost to Glenbard North IL 44-15. Oak Park won eight matches against Midwest City and Glenbard N won nine matches against the same lineup Oak Park faced. Midwest City ended up placing 13th place at the Clash while Sandburg easily took first place beating the #2 team in NJ 47-18. (Jackson is #2 behind Blair Academy in NJ) Sandburg has nationally ranked kids throughout their entire lineup and do not have one weak weight class.

The best team Oak Park beat this season is El Reno and they are not even nationally ranked this season. Sandburg has already beaten 5-6 nationally ranked teams this year and have not been challenged yet this season. Oak Park is an excellent team and are ranked exactly where they should be nationally.

[deepfat]

Deepfat - Yes I was a freshman at state in 1996. Hard to believe that was almost ten years ago!!!! Who was your coach?

Rick - I was talking about the Oak Park kids now. I am sure that the Competitors program laid the foundation upon which much of Oak Park's current success is based. I believe a truly good coach is not measured by what he does with the amazing wrestlers, a good coach makes those kids who are average into good wrestlers. I would wager that your coaching staff from Competitors on up does alot of that and I just get to see the finished product at Oak Park High School. I think alot of people think you guys just import the studs, sit on your hands and watch them win state titles....but thats not the case.
I know that I personally improved tremendously when Coach Sherrow came to Chillicothe. I wish that I could have trained in a room like the current OP, or FZW room because one of the limitations of good coaching is it can only take you so far. After that you need other kids in the room who can push you every single day. When you put that coaching together with a tough room and you get a OP or FZW. I commend you on your program, and wish you luck in the future.
I wish I could be back in Columbia for Baily vs Weist, but they have this rule about skipping finals in medical school. How lame!!!!Hahahaha

Wyatt-

My coach was John Daniels when he was at Owensville. Great coach and a guy I really looked up to. I think about that a lot lately that it's been 10 years since I graduated. Man, how the time flies!

[Warren Haynes]

This is such a touchy subject. On the one hand it is awesome that Missouri has a program that is accomplished as Oak Park's, but it is also very tough to get excited about the season when a team is that dominant. I know that the parents are just looking at the best interests of the kids, but a decision to move based solely on the wrestling credentials of a school is rather contradictory thought when calling these kids scholar athletes.
I still have never believed that there is any outright recruiting going on. I have never had the privelege of wrestling for any of the Oak Park coaches, but i have worked with Coach Williams. Coach Rizzi brought him in for a couple of camps when i was in high school, and if he is representetive of the staff at Oak Park, then I see why everyone wants to go there. It just seems like there are an awful lot of move ins, and people always get upset when that happens.
But the list is also quite long for kids that moved in to an area for wrestling, and Oak Park hasn't done anything that hasnt happened before.

[klhill]

Gov, I don't care how much you know or don't know about wrestling. Just my opinion, but I think you're a moron. :smt110

[Thfzn]

I vote for Oak Park #1.

[howellfan]

As good as Oak Park is they are not as good as Sandburg, St. Edward or Blair Academy. Oak Park won the Granite City tournament against second rate teams in Illinois. No disrespect to Edwardsville and Granite City but these teams cannot hold a candle to Sandburg, St. Rita, Providence Catholic, Glenbard N, Neuqua Valley, Montini or Carl Sandburg. I think Granite City placed 9th or 10th place this weekend at the Geneseo Tournament. Midwest City who lost to Oak Park 36-19 lost to Glenbard North IL 44-15. Oak Park won eight matches against Midwest City and Glenbard N won nine matches against the same lineup Oak Park faced. Midwest City ended up placing 13th place at the Clash while Sandburg easily took first place beating the #2 team in NJ 47-18. (Jackson is #2 behind Blair Academy in NJ) Sandburg has nationally ranked kids throughout their entire lineup and do not have one weak weight class.
The best team Oak Park beat this season is El Reno and they are not even nationally ranked this season. Sandburg has already beaten 5-6 nationally ranked teams this year and have not been challenged yet this season. Oak Park is an excellent team and are ranked exactly where they should be nationally.

I would sustpect the reason that Oak Park has not wrestled some of the top teams in the nation is do to MSHSAA and their travel policy for sports teams. I believe that the policy states that a team can travel no more than 200 miles from the state border. So if you put that in perspective, the best teams in the country are father away from the state.

[The Godfather]

As good as Oak Park is they are not as good as Sandburg, St. Edward or Blair Academy. Oak Park won the Granite City tournament against second rate teams in Illinois. No disrespect to Edwardsville and Granite City but these teams cannot hold a candle to Sandburg, St. Rita, Providence Catholic, Glenbard N, Neuqua Valley, Montini or Carl Sandburg. I think Granite City placed 9th or 10th place this weekend at the Geneseo Tournament. Midwest City who lost to Oak Park 36-19 lost to Glenbard North IL 44-15. Oak Park won eight matches against Midwest City and Glenbard N won nine matches against the same lineup Oak Park faced. Midwest City ended up placing 13th place at the Clash while Sandburg easily took first place beating the #2 team in NJ 47-18. (Jackson is #2 behind Blair Academy in NJ) Sandburg has nationally ranked kids throughout their entire lineup and do not have one weak weight class.

The best team Oak Park beat this season is El Reno and they are not even nationally ranked this season. Sandburg has already beaten 5-6 nationally ranked teams this year and have not been challenged yet this season. Oak Park is an excellent team and are ranked exactly where they should be nationally.

John, You need to realize that even though Oak Park only beat Midwest City 36-19, they also didn't have Zack Bailey (140) or Elijah Madison (275) in the lineup. If they had those two in the lineup, odds are they would have recorded pins, which would have made the score 45-16. Not to mention that kids would have changed weights, which probably would have resulted in more wins at the upper weights.

As far as them not being as good as those other top notch schools...I guess we'll have to wait until the national duals next season to see.

[moderator1]

both el reno and midwest were ranked top 30 at the time they were wrestling OP and FZW. both also went to NJ the following week i believe and lost a couple of real tough match(s) out there that ultimately pulled them from the top 30.

[John]

El Reno went to NY on a Christmas trip and beat Islip NY by two points in a scrimmage. El Reno and Midwest City were both over ranked early in the season. Midwest City and Ponca City OK both got crushed at the Clash in MN which was won by Carl Sandburg IL. Jackson County NJ which lost to Carl Sandburg in the finals of the Clash 40-16 just beat #18 nationally ranked Paulsboro NJ 39-17. Oak Park has a very talented team but wins over Edwardsville IL, Midwest City and El Reno is not that impressive. Oak Park is a top 10 team nationally but would lose to Blair Academy St. Edward OH and Carl Sandburg IL.

Marist IL just came down to Southern Illinois and won the Mahomet Seymour tournament. Edwardsville placed second. Marist had 12 kids in the finals. Marist placed 7th at the Dvorak Tournament behind 6 other Chicagoland Illinois teams during Christmas break.

Oak Park should enter the Geneseo tournament in Illinois. It is in Geneseo IL and Providence Catholic, St. Rita, and several of the better Iowa teams attend this tournament. Iowa City West and West DesMoines Dowling to name a few. Unfortunately Sandburg does not attend the Geneseo Tournament but this is a great tournament with some great competition. Nationally ranked John Starzyk from Providence Catholic beat nationally ranked Nate Moore IA 6-1 in the finals at 119lbs. Several top ranked Iowa kids lost in Geneseo this weekend. If Oak Park wants some real competition they should enter the Dvorak tournament in the Chicagoland area during Christmas break. I think the Dvorak coordinators would love to have Oak Park attend their tournament. Having Oak Park at the Dvorak would make the tournament that much better.....

[Bob Pollock]

[wrestlefan19]

seems like a pretty even matchup to me!
would love to see that Odonnel Precin matchup!

[John]

If you look at the common opponents and the match-ups Sandburg wins this dual comfortably. Even if you give Oak Park the toss-up weights. Glenbard N vs. Oak Park would be another great dual.

Sandburg dominates 189-HWT against Oak Park. They also win 112, 119, 130, 135, 152, 160 and win comfortably. 103, 140, 171 are toss-ups but I give Oak Park the advantage at those weights. 125, 145 are won by Oak Park easily. Here is the reasoning

103lbs Morrison is a Cadet All-American and has lost to two nationally ranked kids. I give Baily the advantage due to common opponents.
3-0 Oak Park

112lbs Mike McAullife won state at a loaded 103lbs last season for Carl Sandburg. McAullife is better than Uehlin from Midwest who pinned Uehlin.
6-3 Sandburg

119 Should be somewhat of a close match with Schmeski winning by decision 9-3

125 Win for Oak Park, White is good but I think Nay wins by 4-5 points
9-6 Sandburg leads

130 Precin is nationally ranked and a returning Junior All-American. Great match with Precin beating O'Donnell
12-6 Sandburg

135 Common opponents below. Polz wins by 4-5 points. Ramos tech falled the same kid Joiner beat by eight pts.
15-6

140 This match is a toss-up with both kids nationally ranked and both have placed in Fargo in the past. Bailey by decision 15-9 Sandburg

145 Shane Nay by pin 15-15 tie

152 Pretto placed third at Cadet Nationals and lost to nationally ranked Mike Benefiel in OT. On paper Pretto should win but by their comman opponents this is a toss-up. Pretto wins by dec. 18-15

160 Friedl just beat the #1 kid in Illinois and is the younger brother of D-1 All-American Pete Friedl. Moffit pins Steve Bechtold but Moffit did not wrestle against Midwest City. Friedl win by decision 21-15

171 Polz is good but Haynes may be better. Decision Oak Park 21-18

189 This is were it gets ugly for Oak Park....Sandburg has the ability to pin at any of the last three weights. Sandburg by dec. 24-18

215 Sandburg by pin 30-18

HWT Sandburg by pin 36-18.

Oak Park vs. Midwest City

103 Mac Bailey (Oak Park) WBF Wille Gunter 4:22
112 Tyler Untrauer (Midwest City, Oklahoma) WBF Marty Uehlin 1:27
119 Jo Green (Oak Park) dec Seth Johnson 5-2
125 Lance Ledesma (Midwest City, Oklahoma) dec Jake Nay 12-5
135 Dylan Joiner (Oak Park) dec Mark Meyer 10-2
140 Tony Mahan (Midwest City, Oklahoma) dec David Weber 6-2
145 Shane Nay (Oak Park) TFALL Grant Young 29-14
152 Ray Hall (Oak Park) dec Andrew Thigpen 10-7
160 Mat Koelling (Oak Park) Mdec Rob Wood 15-4
171 Brent Haynes (Oak Park) TFALL Nick Kretzschmar 16-0
189 Chris Hill (Midwest City, Oklahoma) dec Mikhail Galich 16-4
215 Matt Welch (Midwest City, Oklahoma) dec Kolton Kono 11-6
275 Eric Bradshaw (Oak Park) dec Chad Grandtaff 5-3

Glenbard N vs Midwest City

103 Tony Ramos Glenbard North, IL decision Willie Gunter Midwest City, OK 5 - 3
112 Tyler Untrauer Midwest City, OK decision Jimmy Chase Glenbard North, IL 10 - 5
119 Geno Capezio Glenbard North, IL decision Seth Johnson Midwest City, OK 9 - 6
125 Danny Monaco Glenbard North, IL fall Lance Ledesma Midwest City, OK 3:18
130 Mark Schultz Glenbard North, IL technical fall Drew Hill Midwest City, OK 17 - 2 0:00
135 Vince Ramos Glenbard North, IL technical fall Mark Meyer Midwest City, OK 19 - 4 0:00
140 Tony Mahan Midwest City, OK decision Carlos Lopez Glenbard North, IL 10 - 4
145 John Malizzio Glenbard North, IL major decision Grant Young Midwest City, OK 13 - 3
152 Bryan O'Conner Glenbard North, IL decision Andrew Thigpen Midwest City, OK 8 - 6
160 Rob Wood Midwest City, OK technical fall Steve Bechtold Glenbard North, IL 18 - 1 0:00
171 Roy Feltson Glenbard North, IL decision Nick Kretzschmar Midwest City, OK 8 - 3
189 Chris Hill Midwest City, OK major decision Mike Eldridge Glenbard North, IL 10 - 2
215 Bobby Heyduk Glenbard North, IL forfeit
275 Rich Guidolin Glenbard North, IL fall Chad Grandstaff Midwest City, OK

Sandburg vs Glenbard N

103 Tony Ramos Glenbard North, IL decision Jon Morrison Carl Sandburg, IL 3 - 1
112 Jimmy Chase Glenbard North, IL forfeit
119 Matt Schmeski Carl Sandburg, IL decision Geno Capezio Glenbard North, IL 3 - 1
125 Danny Monaco Glenbard North, IL fall Kevin White Carl Sandburg, IL 1:41
130 Brandon Precin Carl Sandburg, IL decision Mark Schultz Glenbard North, IL 7 - 2
135 Conrad Polz Carl Sandburg, IL decision Vince Ramos Glenbard North, IL 3 - 1
140 Matt Cusick Carl Sandburg, IL major decision Carlos Lopez Glenbard North, IL 13 - 4
145 John Doyle Carl Sandburg, IL decision John Malizzio Glenbard North, IL 4 - 3
152 Bryan O'Connor Glenbard North, IL decision Eric Pretto Carl Sandburg, IL 7 - 3
160 Ben Friedl Carl Sandburg, IL major decision Travis Moffitt Glenbard North, IL 14 - 5
171 Clinton Polz Carl Sandburg, IL decision Roy Feltson Glenbard North, IL 2 - 1
189 Glenn Hurt Carl Sandburg, IL fall Mike Eldridge Glenbard North, IL 2:35
215 Cameron Miller Carl Sandburg, IL decision Rich Guidolin Glenbard North, IL 3 - 0
275 Eric Rettke Carl Sandburg, IL decision Alex Hansen Glenbard North, IL

[Scrap Iron]

To put all of this into perspective. Missouri rankings are trivial compared to Illinois. There are almost as many teams in the Chicagoland area as there are in Missouri. The talent pool is much larger in Chicago.
Granted there are many great Wrestlers on both teams, just think a minute about the states respective rankings
Sandburg has 11 wrestlers ranked in the top ten in the state of Illinois-Class AA
Oak Park has most of their wrestlers ranked in Missouri Class 4. In fact they dominate the top spots

The Sandburg wrestlers are ranked out of a pool of 296 teams in Class AA Most of the 296 teams in the state don't even have a ranked wrestler There are 108 teams in Class A. Total of 406 teams in the state of Illinois.

The Oakies are ranked out of 52 teams in Class 4. The state of Missouri has a total of 212 teams

After the season why don't we invite Sandburg down to Granite City to have an Exhibition meet with Oak Park. We wont tell the state associations. We will just meet up in some barn in downstate Illinois and wrestle this out

[Bob Pollock]

[Missinglink]

Have any of our posters (other than myself) seen both teams wrestle?

[Bob Pollock]

[Missinglink]

I hesitate to give my opinion in fear that I might enrage the loyal Missouri posters.

[Louden]

I hesitate to give my opinion in fear that I might enrage the loyal Missouri posters.

Do not hesistate. Speak your mind.

[The Godfather]

If you look at the common opponents and the match-ups Sandburg wins this dual comfortably. Even if you give Oak Park the toss-up weights. Glenbard N vs. Oak Park would be another great dual.

Sandburg dominates 189-HWT against Oak Park. They also win 112, 119, 130, 135, 152, 160 and win comfortably. 103, 140, 171 are toss-ups but I give Oak Park the advantage at those weights. 125, 145 are won by Oak Park easily. Here is the reasoning

103lbs Morrison is a Cadet All-American and has lost to two nationally ranked kids. I give Baily the advantage due to common opponents.
3-0 Oak Park

112lbs Mike McAullife won state at a loaded 103lbs last season for Carl Sandburg. McAullife is better than Uehlin from Midwest who pinned Uehlin.
6-3 Sandburg

119 Should be somewhat of a close match with Schmeski winning by decision 9-3

125 Win for Oak Park, White is good but I think Nay wins by 4-5 points
9-6 Sandburg leads

130 Precin is nationally ranked and a returning Junior All-American. Great match with Precin beating O'Donnell
12-6 Sandburg

135 Common opponents below. Polz wins by 4-5 points. Ramos tech falled the same kid Joiner beat by eight pts.
15-6

140 This match is a toss-up with both kids nationally ranked and both have placed in Fargo in the past. Bailey by decision 15-9 Sandburg

145 Shane Nay by pin 15-15 tie

152 Pretto placed third at Cadet Nationals and lost to nationally ranked Mike Benefiel in OT. On paper Pretto should win but by their comman opponents this is a toss-up. Pretto wins by dec. 18-15

160 Friedl just beat the #1 kid in Illinois and is the younger brother of D-1 All-American Pete Friedl. Moffit pins Steve Bechtold but Moffit did not wrestle against Midwest City. Friedl win by decision 21-15

171 Polz is good but Haynes may be better. Decision Oak Park 21-18

189 This is were it gets ugly for Oak Park....Sandburg has the ability to pin at any of the last three weights. Sandburg by dec. 24-18

215 Sandburg by pin 30-18

HWT Sandburg by pin 36-18.

Sorry Bob, I hate to step in but I have been doing a little research today as well.

John, in my opinion:

103 - I agree with Bailey getting the decision. Just a note...Dylan Carew of Iowa City West won the Geneoso tournament, and Bailey beat Carew 6-4 at the Lepic Duals. (OP 3-0)

112 - I didn't give McAuliffe a pin here, but figured on a major. It could go either way though. (CS 4-3)

119 - This match is very much a toss up. This would go 5-5 out of 10 matches, in my opinion, but I'll give it to Sandburg. (CS 7-3)

125 - I think Nay gets a pin here. Illinois' #2 ranked wrestler Kyle Hutter of Providence (in a class where the Sandburg wrestler isn't even ranked) beat Iowa City West's Tyler Carew 12-4 at Geneoso. Nay teched Carew at the Lepic Duals. (OP 9-7)

130 - I agree that Precin gets the decision here. (CS 10-9)

135 - This is really a toss up in my opinion. Illinois' #2 ranked wrestler Steve Zimmerman of St. Rita (Zimmerman took 1st at Dvorak, where Polz took 7th) beat Iowa City West's Kody Pudil 11-4 at Geneoso. The Joiner/Pudil match at the Lepic Duals was very, very close with Pudil winning 1-0. Polz gets the decision. (CS 13-9)

140 - I wouldn't necessarily call this match a toss up. I think Bailey gets the decision hands down, if not a major. Tyler Babcock of Civic Memorial is ranked #8 in Illinois and got embarrassed at Granite City by Bailey. (CS 13-12)

145 - I agree that Nay gets a pin here. (OP 18-13)

152 - I gave Pretto a decision here as well. (OP 18-16)

160 - Freidl's brother being a D1 all american doesn't really matter unless he would wrestle this match for him. I did give Freidl the decision as well though. (CS 19-18 )

171 - Haynes by decision. (OP 21-19)

As far as the last 3 weight classes, there has been alot of movement for Oak Park, so there aren't enough results to compare these guys.

189 - I would give Sandburg a major here since Kono has come down from 215. (CS 23-21)

215 - Bradshaw is at 215 now for OP. I would give Sandburg a decision here. (CS 26-21)

Hwt - Now, I get a kick out of the pin by Sandburg here. Not only is Madison ranked #3 nationally (out of all fresh/soph), #4 in Illinois is Sean Bahami of Edwardsville. He has wrestled two 1-point matches against James Sills of FHN, who is behind Madison in our rankings. I give Oak Park a pin here. (OP 27-26)

It's pretty obvious that this would come down to 189 and 215. Regardless, this would be a very tight dual and awesome to see.

[Southern_Hospitality]

El Reno went to NY on a Christmas trip and beat Islip NY by two points in a scrimmage. El Reno and Midwest City were both over ranked early in the season. Midwest City and Ponca City OK both got crushed at the Clash in MN which was won by Carl Sandburg IL. Jackson County NJ which lost to Carl Sandburg in the finals of the Clash 40-16 just beat #18 nationally ranked Paulsboro NJ 39-17. Oak Park has a very talented team but wins over Edwardsville IL, Midwest City and El Reno is not that impressive. Oak Park is a top 10 team nationally but would lose to Blair Academy St. Edward OH and Carl Sandburg IL.

Marist IL just came down to Southern Illinois and won the Mahomet Seymour tournament. Edwardsville placed second. Marist had 12 kids in the finals. Marist placed 7th at the Dvorak Tournament behind 6 other Chicagoland Illinois teams during Christmas break.

Oak Park should enter the Geneseo tournament in Illinois. It is in Geneseo IL and Providence Catholic, St. Rita, and several of the better Iowa teams attend this tournament. Iowa City West and West DesMoines Dowling to name a few. Unfortunately Sandburg does not attend the Geneseo Tournament but this is a great tournament with some great competition. Nationally ranked John Starzyk from Providence Catholic beat nationally ranked Nate Moore IA 6-1 in the finals at 119lbs. Several top ranked Iowa kids lost in Geneseo this weekend. If Oak Park wants some real competition they should enter the Dvorak tournament in the Chicagoland area during Christmas break. I think the Dvorak coordinators would love to have Oak Park attend their tournament. Having Oak Park at the Dvorak would make the tournament that much better.....

I believe Edwardsville could of took that Tournament if they had a full lineup. Edwardsville has two of its better wrestlers out for the saeason. One of them would of place 2nd and the other would of probably place 3rd or 4th. However, Edwardsvile had wrestlers in those two weights that didn't even place.

[Southern_Hospitality]

To all and John. Here are the line ups for both teams. I included their respectve state ranking which I realize means nothing, just for reference. I made sure I put all of the Ill boys on top. Can you or any of the veiwers offer any objective information on these match ups like head to head in the off season, common opponents or national rankings to support the comment, "As good as Oak Park is they are not as good as Sandburg"? I have no idea but since you are so certain, I would be interested in looking at the feedback.
103
7 John Morrison Fr Carl Sandburg
2 Mac Bailey Fr Oak Park
112
6 Mike McAuliffe Sr Carl Sandburg
2 Marty Uehlin Fr Oak Park
119
10 Matt Schmeski Sr Carl Sandburg
4 Joe Green Fr Oak Park
125
No ?? Carl Sandburg
2 Jacob Nay Sr Oak Park
130
1 Brandon Precin Sr Carl Sandburg
Scott O'Donnell Jr Oak Park
135
6 Conrad Polz So Carl Sandburg
1 Dylan Joiner So Oak Park
140
2 Matt Cusick Jr Carl Sandburg
1 Zack Bailey Sr Oak Park
145
8 John Doyle Jr Carl Sandburg
1 Shane Nay Jr Oak Park
152
3 Eric Pretto Jr Carl Sandburg
3 Ray Hall So Oak Park
160
5 Ben Friedl Sr Carl Sandburg
5 Mat Koelling Sr Oak Park
171
4 Clinton Polz Sr Carl Sandburg
1 Brent Haynes So Oak Park
189
No ?? ? Carl Sandburg
7 Kolton Kono So Oak Park
215
No ?? ? Carl Sandburg
No Eric Bradshaw Sr Oak Park
275
6 Eric Rettke Sr Carl Sandburg
3 Elijah Madison So Oak Park

Sanburgs 189 pounder is Glenn Hurt and their 215 pounder is Cameron Miller. Glenn Hurt record last year 27-16 and Cameron Miller record last year was 21-8. Niether of them qualify for state last year

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Neither qualified for state last year but John is predicting certain pins by these two over Kono and Bradshaw. I realize that Illinois has only two classes and it is more difficult to qualify - probably two or threee times as difficult - but I don't see how John can assume certain pins here. What if one of the closes matches at 119 and 130 goes for Oak Park and Sandburg doesn't get pins at 189 and 215 but only D or MD's? And What if Madison actually wins at HWT? It would be a very close meet.

[The Godfather]

Neither qualified for state last year but John is predicting certain pins by these two over Kono and Bradshaw. I realize that Illinois has only two classes and it is more difficult to qualify - probably two or threee times as difficult - but I don't see how John can assume certain pins here. What if one of the closes matches at 119 and 130 goes for Oak Park and Sandburg doesn't get pins at 189 and 215 but only D or MD's? And What if Madison actually wins at HWT? It would be a very close meet.

RP, check out my scenario's above.

I just hope that John has more to discuss, after I spent several hours yesterday researching this stuff. I would also be curious to hear Missinglink's thoughts since he has seen both squads.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

I saw that, Puckett - it was good work. I just had to put my 2 cents in as well.

[The Godfather]

I saw that, Puckett - it was good work. I just had to put my 2 cents in as well.

As always :lol:

One other thing I noticed yesterday, and Smith would probably be the best person to answer this...how is it that Oak Park can go to the St. Francis Desales Tournament in Columbus, OH? Somebody posted once upon a time that there is some limit put into place by the MSHSAA where no school can compete in an event more than 200 miles away. This tournament is approx. 400 miles from the Missouri border. I only ask because Ironman is also in Ohio (though it's approx. another 100 miles from Columbus) and that would be a great tournament for Oak Park to compete in.

[deepfat]

I think we can all agree that this would be one of those meets where a tech or a major that should be a pin would be the deciding factor in the contest.

[ivan robison]

The new rule states that a team may travel to one tournament out of the previous area as long as there is not more than 24 teams in that tournament. Which still leaves a very strong team like Oakpark out of the best tournaments.

[Louden]

The new rule states that a team may travel to one tournament out of the previous area as long as there is not more than 24 teams in that tournament. Which still leaves a very strong team like Oakpark out of the best tournaments.

I really wish I knmew the reasoning behind this... What does 24 teams or 48 teams have to do with anything?! Please someone explain this to me because I must be dupid....

[Bob Pollock]

[The Godfather]

One other consideration that I was just informed on is that from 125, Jacob Nay to 152, Ray Hall, OP would drop a weight class for for a National competition. They would likely fill 152 in with Marcus Armato.

I don't know enough about Oak Park's depth...What has Marcus Armato accomplished?

And what losses does Shane Nay have in his career? Who would win the match up with him and Cusick?

[Bob Pollock]

[Louden]

Bob, you know too much for your own good. I fear you will have to be removed... I am sorry. :smt070

[RP-in-Nebraska]

..... against a kid .....

Would this be just any random "kid"? :-D

[urpinned]

It was against the kid from Blue Springs and it went into O.T.

[The Godfather]

Looks like John had no comments about my "re-analysis". Somebody email AWN and intermat and tell them to move Oak Park above Carl Sandburg...

[deepfat]

Looks like John had no comments about my "re-analysis". Somebody email AWN and intermat and tell them to move Oak Park above Carl Sandburg...

I was thinking, any high school named after a poet can't be that tough. :wink:

A team with the word Park in the name, now that's a meat grinder.

[John]

RP-in-Nebraska

I have been in California all week but just reviewed your analysis and do not agree. Sandburg would win this dual.


I gave Oak Park almost all the toss-up matches and I still have Sandburg winning. Morrison at 103 can beat Bailey but I gave that match to Oak Park. Sandburg could possibly win at 140lbs as well. Cusick is #1 in Illinois and a Junior All-American. I gave that match to Oak Park but Cusick has the talent to win that match. 171lbs is also a toss-up and I gave that match to Oak Park and even with me giving those toss-up matches to Oak Park I still have them losing.

Sorry RP I have seen both teams wrestle and that is my analysis. That is why all the experts have Sandburg ranked 3rd in the country and Oak Park ranked lower than Sandburg.

Eric Rettke has the talent to win state at HWT in Illinois. Oak Park HWT is good but too young at this time to beat Rettke. Dave Lembas is Cadet All-American in both Greco and Freestyle and Rettke beat him.

RP-in-Nebraska you have Sandburg winning by 5 going into the HWT match and than you predict a pin by Oak Park?? Rettke lost in OT to maybe the best HWT in the state of Illinois. Rettke beat Dave Lembas who is a double Cadet All-American and placed at the Ironman this year. Oak Park does not get a pin at this weight. Sandburg wins this weight..

Oak Park has a talented team but Sandburg is too loaded and would overwhelm Oak Park in a dual this season.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Obviously, most of the experts agree with you. However, I posed the hypothetical question of what if OP won all of the close ones and Sandburg didn't get pins at the weights you say they would. The dual would then be very close and OP could end up winning. Another point that was brought up on this or another thread is the fact that the OP coaches would likely shift their line-up from 125 to 160 down one weight class for a national competition of this caliber and insert a varsity starter from last year at 160.

Too bad this match won't happen.