The Multiplier

[Celtic]

Didnt know its possible to have .65 of a student attend a school? Wow, that really sucks for Trinity. Richmond, has the highest enrollment in Class 1, 538, Trinity has the lowest enrollment in Class 2 with 538.65! I hope this shows people how stupid the multiplier rule is. If the rule was not in effect, the majority of private schools in Class 2 would move down, but this .65 difference is ridiculous. Im not taking anything away from Class 1 competition, but I think Id rather see the likes of even Trenton or Marceline over Platte County and Oak Grove.

The argument with the multiplier is private schools do not have to take in students, who are not able to compete athletically due to mental or physical handicaps. However, does 35% of public schools enrollment fit this category? Its absurd and impossible to believe this.

[Clark_W_Griswald]

Can't private schools recruit using grants? I know Helias was doing this for years and stealing a lot of good athletes away from the Jeff City Jays.

[DScott]

A bigger argument is the size of a school districts. Public schools have well-defined boundaries. Private schools on the other hand can take any student within a 45 mile radius (90 mile diameter, which would basically encompass the whole KC or St. Louis metro areas), much larger than your typical public school district, as long as they can pay their tuition. And even if they can't afford tuition, it can be taken care of if they're good enough in athletics, often times through donations from alumni (Tom Grant and the Rush brothers ring a bell?).
If it were offered to drop any multipliers in exchange for defining clear district boundaries which would be comparable in size to public schools, how many private schools do you think would agree to that? None.

[Venuswalks]

Dscott - You have a point about the boundries. But, giving grants based on athletics or sponsors has been illegal under MSHSAA for a very long time. Why do we need another rule to govern that. Next, how does anyone come up with 35%. There was no case study done and no existing reseach that supports the number. Really, this is not that much different then the 4 class system we have now. Somebody wanted 4 classes, it was put to a vote and passed. Do we really have so much tallent that we need 4 classes.

Getting back to the multiplier....35% came out of the air. And, guess what...it has not changed anything. If anything it has just hurt different schools. Look at basketball....Vashon moved down a class. Take a look at the teams still having success. Are they any different then before. Everyone talks about Helias. The year after the multiplier who won Class two....Helias. Last year Country Day won the Class 3 football championship and was second this year.

You mentioned grants for good athletes and Helias stealing talent from the Jays? Take a look at Oak Grove's wrestling program. How many transfers over the years have ended up at Oak Park or St Charles West. And you can think of many many more.

The multiplier may have been a good idea in theory, but in practice it has not corrected anything and probably made the situation worse.

[DScott]

Grants or "scholarships" are only illegal with MSHSAA if they are for athletics. Tom Grant paid for both Rush brothers to go to Pembroke Hill. He was a KU alumni and was hoping that in gratitude, they would go to KU. Of course, his reasoning was that it was not for athletics (and he did give money for other Pembroke Hill students who were not athletes), but let's get real. Everyone knew why they were there.

[fudge tunnel]

Grants or "scholarships" are only illegal with MSHSAA if they are for athletics. Tom Grant paid for both Rush brothers to go to Pembroke Hill. He was a KU alumni and was hoping that in gratitude, they would go to KU. Of course, his reasoning was that it was not for athletics (and he did give money for other Pembroke Hill students who were not athletes), but let's get real. Everyone knew why they were there.

He needs to buy some wrestlers for Pem Hill. They used to have a competitive team back in the 80's.

[sdrblu]

Can't private schools recruit using grants? I know Helias was doing this for years and stealing a lot of good athletes away from the Jeff City Jays.


This is totally absurd...no one (private or public) is allowed to recruit. You say Helias has been "stealing athletes for years from Jeff City Jays"...if you make a statement like that, you have to back it up with facts...GIVE SOME NAMES! If you don't have any evidence, your information must come from rumors or lies. The MSHSAA has NEVER found Helias in violation of recruitment laws, and believe me, I'm sure they've investigated...but only becuase people make statements like, "Oh, they won 12 state titles in wrestling, the MUST recruit."

Question: Did Linn High School recruit 2 standout basketball players from Helias? 2 brothers grew up in the Linn School District and then went to high school at Helias. The both played basketball. But this year, they both transfered to Linn (the oldest brother is a senior).


After extensive research on the multiplier issue, it is known that the original # the North County school District attempted to place on the April 2002 ballot was 50%, but a deadline was approaching and they weren't going to get enough schools to sign, so the # was dropped down to 35%. The measure was able to get the required amount of schools to sign and it was placed on the ballot RIGHT BEFORE THE DEADLINE. It was put on the deadline without ANY scientific research or studies showing 35% wasn't the MOST FAIR #. Interesting, when you look at those first year enrollements when the multiplier first started, a number lower thatn 35% would not have affected many schools...but 35% was just enough to move up Helias and Pembrook Hill.

When the multiplier was placed on the ballot, the MSHSAA came out against it! Their reasoning was becuase they wanted time to fully study the issue so that they could use the most fair #. However, when the multiplier passes, the MSHSAA also said that they would conduct a several year study on the multiplier, its fairness, and its effect on the schools and athletic competitions...my question is, "WHERE IS THAT STUDY?!"

The multiplier issue will not go away becuase it has affected sports. It has ESPECIALLY affected the sports of basketball, baseball, soccer, softball, track, cross country, golf, and volleyball. Something has effective and dramatic to high school athletics such as the multiplier deserves to be as most studied and as most fair as possible. The students deserve this! And actually, this is more of a "parent-led" attack on non-public schools, not a "student-led".


I don't know what other private schools do, but Helias does not give out grants...heck, it's the cheapest private school in the state...most people think it cost $6,000+ to attend, when in reality, tuition is only $2,800. The Public school system spends over $5,000 on each child. This is due to a strong community support and alumni contributions. And if a student does need help paying, the administration doesn't go looking for him/her...the students must take the intiative and responsibility to seek limited job as a "room-cleaner" or "lunch-server". The next time anyone says Helias recruits, he/she should give names...otherwise, your statement has no merit.

Rockhurst recruits in football

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Interesting, when you look at those first year enrollements when the multiplier first started, a number lower thatn 35% would not have affected many schools...but 35% was just enough to move up Helias and Pembrook Hill.


Move them up to where.....from where. Class designations are determined on a sport-by-sport or activity-by-activity basis. I doubt if somebody was trying to move Pem Hill up to class 3 for wrestling because they wanted to avoid their stellar wrestling team. I think you'd also be wrong to think that all of the people who voted for this multiplier were out to get Helias.

Whether you want to admit it or not, private schools do recruit - for various reasons - whether it's through official or unofficial methods. I was once told with reasonable certainty by a Rockhurst alumnus that they recruited football players. Do you actually think Kenyon Rasheed was Jesuit Catholic?

[Celtic]

Im a big supporter of getting a private school education and Ive stated my opinion on how I think the multiplier is ridiculous. However, its also ridiculous to think private schools dont recruit. Most private schools even have a recruiting office. HOWEVER, there is a BIG difference in recruiting and scouting. Private schools must recruit STUDENTS to come to their school so the parents and student can see the advantages of coming to their school. But no school scouts athletes, no matter how much you might believe, nobody from private schools is out there scouting 8th grade basketball or football games. Do private schools recruit, yes. But do they scout, absolutely not!

And to DSCOTT, putting boundaries on private schools is the dumbest statement Ive ever heard. You might has well make it a public school. The Rush brothers case was a once in a blue moon deal. Is it perfectly legal for that man to pay for their education, yes, but does it happen often, not at all.

And I cannot stand Rockhurst. I do not support their school in any way. However, the name in itself "Rockhurst" recruits itself. Athletes want to go their because of the tradition they have built in winning. Even though I despise their school in every which way, they dont have to tempt athletes to come to their school, they come anyway.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

You'd be naive to think that Johnny's dad doesn't talk to Tommy's dad about going to private school XYZ (Johnny's dad's alma mater which happens to have a powerhouse basketball program) as their two kids dominate on the little league basketball court. Whether it's official or not, it's still recruiting.

Questions: Can private schools recruit certain kids based on academics?

How do private schools recruit - do they simply cold call people from the phone book or do they obtain a list of prospective students from other students and alumni?

[sdrblu]

However, its also ridiculous to think private schools dont recruit. Most private schools even have a recruiting office.

I don't know about the other private schools, but I know for a fact that Helias does not have a "recruiting office" or recruiting team, administrator, board, etc.

[quote]"Interesting, when you look at those first year enrollements when the multiplier first started, a number lower thatn 35% would not have affected many schools...but 35% was just enough to move up Helias and Pembrook Hill."[quote]


When I made this statement, I wasn't refering to the sport of wrestling, put to the whole athletic programs of these schools...that number (35%) was the perfect number to allow Helias to move up in almost every sport (except 2, cross country and wrestling). 30% wouldn't have done it. And you know (if you've been following high school sports since the 80's) that theres always been anti-Helias feelings...other schools do not like Helias, and the schools who voted for the multiplier definitely had Helias and Pembrook Hill in their mind...for the class 3 schools, it was about moving Helias up to "give someone else a chance", for class 1 and 2 schools, it was about Pembrook Hill...a lot of the large schools didn't vote on it becuase they're so big they would never change. And remember, Helias has 30 state titles, 12 in wrestling...18 in other sports...the multiplier had virtually nothing to do with wrestling, sorry if you got that from my earlier statement.

[Celtic]

They dont have open house or student ambassadors? They dont anyone go and talk to the parochial grade schools close to Helias? Its hard to believe if a prospective student came to Helias with their parents and wanted to know more about the school, that nobody would tell them about all the great things Helias has to offer them. If they dont, thats pretty impressive, considering they are choosing a school they are paying over 5,000 dollars to go to, when they have no idea about the school!

[DScott]

"And to DSCOTT, putting boundaries on private schools is the dumbest statement Ive ever heard. You might has well make it a public school. The Rush brothers case was a once in a blue moon deal. Is it perfectly legal for that man to pay for their education, yes, but does it happen often, not at all."

You're proving my point. Private schools, complain about it as they might, would much rather have the multiplier in effect than to have to reduce their district boundaries in an attempt to level the playing field (God forbid they should have to abide by the same rules the public schools do).
And if you think that the Rush type of scenario rarely happens, then you're either blind or in denial.

[sdrblu]

they are paying over 5,000 dollars to go to

I guess you didn't read my entire posting, Helias tuition is one of the lowest, if not the lowest, private high school in the state...it's current tuition is about $2,800 (which is cheaper than what the government spends on each student in the public school system). And, once again, Helias does not have a "recruiting office" or a "recruiting team", etc. If someone came in wanting to know information about the school, he/she would be given the same direction as he/she would in a public school: he/she would be directed to an administrator (not a "recruitment officer") and probably be told to visit the website...Helias doesn't have any fancy brochures or expensive mailings to "recruiting students"...

The overwhelming majority of Helias students come from the 5 parochial schools in jeff city or right on the jeff city border (they use jeff city zip codes and adresses). These are St. Peters, Immaculate Conception, St. Joseph, St. Stanislus, and St. Martins. Some come from Trinity Luthern (also in Jeff City) and some come from St. Francis (in Taos - 2minutes outside jeff city border). Yes, a very small portion come from more than 10 miles outside jeff city...but if there parents want to send the child to a Catholic High School, Helias is the only choice in the Jefferson City Diocese - the Diocese spands as far down as the Lake of the Ozarks all the way to the Iowa border including Hannibal.

Still, no one has been able to give ONE example of Helias recruiting...yet the charges continue.

[stillman]

sdrblu,
By advertising how low the cost is to go to Helias, it kind of sounds like you are recruiting :shock:

Just an observation.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

And you know (if you've been following high school sports since the 80's) that theres always been anti-Helias feelings...other schools do not like Helias,...

No disrespect intended, but there are many reasons why this is somewhat true. Here is my perception and some of my teammates perception from the 1980's wrestling state tournaments when Helias dominated:

One reason is that their pride is often times expressed as boasting.

Another reason is that Catholicism somewhat instills a feeling of elitism in it's members - from the doctrine of Papal infallibility right on down to the grade school level. This elitist attitude often times is revealed in competitive events. And, if you've followed my posts throughout the past year, you know that I am not anti-religious or anti-Catholic.

Another reason is the fact that they were so good in wrestling, we just wanted to see them lose.

In contrast, Oak Park has had dominating years in wrestling in class 4 yet there is not as much animosity towards them because of the way they conduct themselves.

Just one man's frank yet respectful perspective.

[sdrblu]

they conduct themselves.

Interesting, I sat next to a guy and his wife at last year's state tournament who was from a small class 2 school. When we got to talking, they said how much they miss the huge crowds Helias brought to the Hearnes...it used to be the entire Hearnes center vs. the Helias fan section. They said that their team never wreslted Helias, but they loved seeing the spirit in the fans. The last 2 years, Helias has performed poorly at state, only getting 2 state champions, but one thing people realize is that they still bring a huge crowd...last year on Friday afternoon, Helias had a great crowd, and when Brian Markway pinned his guy, the whole section erupted...Helias support will always be strong, even in not the best of times.

But, if "boasting" is the worse offense you can give, I commend the students and the fans! Give examples of how Helias students have "conducted themselves" in a poor manner, something other than displaying school pride. You never hear stories of Helias students vandalizing other school's vans or busses (which happened to us), or slashing tires (happened to us), or having t-shirts that say "Farmington sucks" (happened to us), or coaches threating/assaulting rival coaches, or throwing food onto the mats during our rival is wrestling (happened to us), etc, etc, etc. No one on here talks about the 90's when fans from SCW and Farmington would verbal abuse our guys and the fans, or about when Coach Jeffries got whole fruits thrown at him while he was coaching a match in the Championship round. No, apparantly, Helias is the "bad guy" becuase they "boasted" and brought big crowds...If Oak Park was 20 minutes from Columbia, (like Helias), 1/2 their school would come also. The school pride at Helias is huge...come to their Homecoming Assembly, and you might see how great it is. Teachers will come to teach at Helias (for some reason), they seem to never leave...believe me, the teachers get paid crap, so something else is driving them to stay at the school......

[sdrblu]

stillman wroteBy advertising how low the cost is to go to Helias, it kind of sounds like you are recruiting

I know your just joking, but the thing is, who would Helias be recruiting? The kids that go to Helias are brought up in Catholic schools and know (in like 5th grade) that they'll be continuing their catholic education at the high school...this is no different than the public schools. Jeff City High
School is made up of students that attended public schools (with few exceptions, of course)...and when they're in 5th grade, they know that they'll attend Jeff City High School.


Earlier, on this subject, someone said Helias has been "stealing" athletes from Jeff City...I know that before Helias got a soccer program (in 2001), if you were good at soccer and went to a private school, a lot of them crossed over to go to Jeff City in order to play soccer...I wouldn't call that recruiting, but no one seems to mention (or be aware) of that.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

I didn't mean that they throw food on people or vandalized or intentionally get into fights or wear disrespectful T-shirts - I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I simply meant the arrogance, boasting, and attitude of superiority. You're right, if boasting is the worst "offense" then Helias should be commended for conducting themselves better than most schools. However, you seemed to not understand why Helias was disliked by some so I provided my straight-forward analysis - boastfulness, elitism, and jealousy.

[Tigerbait]

In response to an earlier post, Vashon is a public school (and not a very good one at that), but does attract the best basketballs players in STL city to play for Floyd Irons' program.

In regard to recruiting in general, I think for the most part it is total hogwash. In St. Louis anyway, the top athletic private schools also are some of the best academically. Schools such as Country Day and John Burroughs will be quick to point out how many of their students are National Merit Scholars or will be attending Ivy League schools. And it's not like the smart kids are all pointdexters. They are out there in starting varsity lineups on the football field, basketball court, and wrestling mat. Look at Whitfield's Drake Hovis (Cornell) or MICDS' Peter Miller (Stanford)

Also, most private schools start their "recruiting" in 6th and 7th grade. There is usually a rigourous screening process for admitting students into the school even at the ages of 10-12. Since most of these kids have not even hit puberty yet, it is impossible to tell which of these kids will blossom into a stud athlete (unless you judge by their parents athletic history).

With the exception of the large Catholic schools, which normally limit their recruiting to parochial schools (I will admit that they do have a large amount of "athletically gifted" students who do not appear to be Roman Catholic), most students at private schools live within a 5-10 minute drive from the school. Private schools are not cheap, and are located in high income areas where wealthy families are more willing to pay the extra buck to give their kids a premium education. Look at the Van Slyke family from John Burroughs. Andy Van Slyke went to JBS before his baseball career, and went on to send his kids to JBS as well. There is no way you can acuse John Burroughs of recruiting the Van Slykes, who during their high school careers were some of Missouri's best all-around athletes.

Finally, in response to Helias being "boastful" about their athletic accomplishments, I will have to say that Rockhurst trumps Helias in touting their past. Ask anyone in St. Louis who claims to follow high school sports about Helias and they will give you a quizical look, as if you started speaking to them in Chinese. Ask anyone in St. Louis about Rockhurst, and they will tell you how they have one of the state's best athletic programs.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

I didn't say Helias was the worst. Even Celtic says he despises Rockhurst and Celtic is from another Catholic school in the K.C. area. And yes, many of the large Catholic schools peculiarly have many gifted athletes attending their school who have no clue that the "Hail Mary" is something other than a football play, that the Rosary is not a flower, that Confirmation is more than checking to see if your airline ticket is ready for your trip to a D-1 football school for a recruiting visit, or that confession is something other than admitting to the police that they were the one that robbed the convenience store.

[rhino61]

Please don't be so naive to think that some private schools "recruit". To some degree they all do whether it is for academics or for athletics. Not all private schools are religious either, i.e. Catholic.

This not to say they search for wreslers as much as in other areas. Why or how could an inner city kid from a low income family be able to attend a high cost academy such as, say MICDS (Country Day)? That would be Larry Hughes, college and NBA player.

The encouragement to to attend many of these schools is very definitely by alumni and parent word of mouth and such. Just like a business the ways and means are there to circumvent the MSHAA rules if the desire is strong enough.

[Denmom]

And don't think you can just get into all these schools because of their wrestling program or such. Country Day and John Burroughs are strict about your academics level to get in there. In John Burroughs you had to have letters of recommendations and grades. Maybe others are less different like Helias or Catholic schools because they are private run schools that are the same as a public school just with some religious basic. But definitely all private schools aren't out recuiting for sports.

[Tigerbait]

Larry Hughes went to CBC, and it has already been mentioned that Christian Brothers has a history of inner city athletes. Look for this trend to continue in the future, as the Christian Brothers have started opening small middle schools in the poorest parts of the city in order to get the kids motivated about high school. Most of these kids go to CBC, St. Elizabeths (girls), or Cardinal Ritter. However, this program is purely academic and is geared towards giving these kids a secondary and college education they otherwise would never have. Sorry, this is getting off the point.

The only athletes you can accuse CDS of recruiting were running backs Mike Mayweather and Jonathan Reese, who went on to have record breaking college careers at Westpoint and Columbia University, respectively.

[Loethen]

I have to weigh in on this:

I went to Helias in the 80's. I cannot think of one wrestler on our team who was not from the JC area or not Catholic. Their might have been But I can't remember him. In fact the four years I went their we only had one non catholic in our school. It was a female, didn't play any sports but if I remeber right she did go to an Ivy League school.

1. What is the difference in Helais visting the their local feeder schools: IC, ST Joe, St Petes, St Martins etc, and JC going to visit kids at Jeff JR, Lewis and clark etc.

2. One of JCs best wrestlers in the 80's Jason Bax, went to my church (ST Joe) and had relatives at Helias. He went to JC. I guess Coach wasn't on his horse and missed him. The Hengs went to ST Martins and later wrestled for JC. So I guess JC recruited them?

3. I cannot recall Helias ever being knocked for bad behavior. In fact just the opposite.

4. In fact the whole wrestling community was jealous of Helias. They were the best program of any class for several years. No brag just fact. We dueled and beat Howell, Blue springs, all the top Class 4 teams. I don't think the best OP team could beat the best Helias team. mostly because no matter how good of a state team Helias had they were better at duels. I do think a lot of it is Anti-Catholicism, or just a perception that Helais is a bunch of rich kids (which is also not true).

One huge examaple is how the Helias kids were treated at SP camp in USA, or how they were DQ for exema (the head ref claimed it was ring worm) in FS state. There are others. I don't want go into them. To be Honest that has changed over the last few years, but it was rough in the 90's my little brother was a victim of this.

5. When you are on the top (much like the Yankees) everybody wants you to lose. How many of you were pulling for the Steelers to beat the Pats this year. I know I was.

6. When people cannot beat you they look for excuses as to why they lose.

7. However if you think the multiplier (no matter how wrong it is) was designed for wrestling you are misguided. It was for football, and basketball, thats why it passed.

8. My son ( a 7th grader) is one of the top youth wrestlers in the state, 4 time placer, 2nd last year. (and a heck of a football player, and a track state champ) You would think Helias would be beating down my door. They aren't because they don't recruit.

[edevenney]

"I went to Helias in the 80's. I cannot think of one wrestler on our team who was not from the JC area or not Catholic. Their might have been But I can't remember him. In fact the four years I went their we only had one non catholic in our school. It was a female, didn't play any sports but if I remeber right she did go to an Ivy League school. "

Where did Bruce Smith, Eric Williams, Sam & Brian Gaines live?

Pretty sure Smith lived part of the time on the same street as myself in Columbia.

Williams also lived in Columbia.

Gaines Brothers lived in New Bloomfield. (I know this is considered the JC area but they do have a high school but didn't have a wrestling team at that time).

I never had any complaints about this and knew that Helias was good b/c they worked hard.

I do think the multiplier is too high and would like to see solid research on this topic before the number is set to have a better justification for it or if there should be one at all.

If people spent more time training and less time complaining they would have a lot less to complain about.

[Loethen]

Your right, Columbia does not have a catholic high school. There is usally about 10-15 kids who car pooled down from Columbia.

Columbia is getting ready to build a catholic HS in the next few years.

We all know the mult, is wrong it was used as an excuse to kick Helais out of the NCMC (although now that helais athletics are in a slump I sure bet the NCMC would have loved to keep them to get a little revenge).

I would prob. say the mult borders on being unconstitional. But that being said I would rather be in CL 3 than CL 2 any day. CL3 is harder and carries more prestige.

lets figure the real pool Helias can pull from: JC has about 40,000 residents. roughly 20% catholic so thats 8,000 potential residents. Lets say there an additional 10,000 in surronding areas, roughly 10% catholic.
and 100 kids from Columbia that are potential Helias students: thats 9,100 roughly the same pool as Han, Ozark, Nixa, our any other mid size CL 3 school.

Long story short right noe Helias is in a slump the would get their @#$ handed to them in CL 2 or CL 3. They have a lot of good young kids they will be back.

Same is if this was the mid 80'd Helias would dominate any Class. I don't think the size of a school matter so much in wrestling (it does in Football)as the coaching and the work ethic of the kids. Heck I would like to have a 1 class state.

Indiana is a 1 class state Mater Dei dominates the wrestling and they have 600 kids in the school. (They also kicked the tar out some of the best MO schools at the OG tourney back in the 90's)

[ncmcalumni]

"4. In fact the whole wrestling community was jealous of Helias. They were the best program of any class for several years. No brag just fact. We dueled and beat Howell, Blue springs, all the top Class 4 teams. I don't think the best OP team could beat the best Helias team. mostly because no matter how good of a state team Helias had they were better at duels. I do think a lot of it is Anti-Catholicism, or just a perception that Helais is a bunch of rich kids (which is also not true). "

Sorry dude! I wrestled in the 80's, got my butt kicked by john lage and kurt rienkmeyer, like helias wrestling and wrestlers, I even hate the multipler and think it is b.s., but the best Helias team couldn't beat this years OP team. SORRY.

That said you really have to get off your kick. Everyone knows Helias had a great program and will most likly be good again, but please stop. You are not doing Helias any favors by coming on the boards and bragging about the past teams and your kid. It makes you sound silly.

My old high school coach used to say "If you are good, people will know your good. You don't have to bring attention to yourself"

[RP-in-Nebraska]

We all know the mult, is wrong it was used as an excuse to kick Helais out of the NCMC


You put way too much emphasis on your alma mater. Not everything that is done in Missouri high school sports is done for revenge against Helias. :roll:

I agree with ncmcalumni, you sound silly and start to lose credibility when you talk like this.

[Loethen]

It is a fact that the Mult was used to kick Helias out of the NCMC. It also had nothing to do with wrestling and everything to do with football. I stated that earlier.

It was stated by the NCMC that based on the mult, Helias is to large of a school to remain in the NCMC. Rockbridge was also kicked out. That is the truth of it.

I will still take the 84-85 Crusaders against any OP team period. In a duel that team was untouchable. Remember Helias is #3 in the country in all time duel wins, where is OP?

I don't like the mult, but I also don't care about it because I don't think it hurts any school in wrestling, like I said I wish we were a 1 or 2 class state.

All boys schools do need a mult of some kind, becuase a school of 500 males is not the same of a school of 500 students.

[Loethen]

As for saying becuase I believe that the 85 crusaders could beat op I lose my crediability, how so. It is an opinion.

I also thaik the 82 cards are one of the best teams in baseball. The 99 Rams could beat any team in the playoffs this year, so forth and so on. It is just an opinion and that a 25 cents can get me a cup of coffee.

I cant help it, I am a Cards, Rams, and Crusaders fan (72 -05).

Although becuase of what happended to Coach J, my kids won't be going there. In my mind the school closed this year.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

I will still take the 84-85 Crusaders against any OP team period. In a duel that team was untouchable. Remeber Helias is #3 in the country in all time duel wins, where is OP?


This years OP team is the best team missouri has ever produced - tournament or duals.

#3 in the country total all-time dual wins is awesome! However, using a historical overall school statistic as an argument that a single team would beat another single team is a logical fallacy.

I think that this years OP team would win big against the 84-85 Crusaders.

List their line-up by weights, state placings, and let's do a hypothetical dual.

[MG_Grievous]

Remeber Helias is #3 in the country in all time duel wins, where is OP?

<


#3 in the country total all-time dual wins is awesome! However, using a historical overall school statistic as an argument that a single team would beat another single team is a logical fallacy.

[legrider]

Question?

You do have to have credibility first, before you lose it, RIGHT?

Band Wagon Riders!

Looking forward to seeing how many of the faithful Helias fans will be at state this year. I will tell you what, if they have 50 fans we will let them use the multiplier, so it makes them look like they have more in attendance. Since the multiplier was implemented for Helias sake. We might as well use it for all situations. :-({|= =D>

[MG_Grievous]

Your sig doesn't have any credibility. :smt016

[RP-in-Nebraska]

As for saying becuase I believe that the 85 crusaders could beat op I lose my crediability, how so. It is an opinion.


It's not that - that's a valid opinion. However, every post you post is the argument for why Helias is the best at anything and everything and how all of the decisions concerning high school sports n Missouri are based on how it affects Helias.

Let's do that hypothetical 2005-2006 OP vs 84-85 Helias dual. :P

[ncmcalumni]

I was as pissed off as anyone when the conference changed, I believe that to be the best you have to beat the best but, lets make this very clear! Rock Bridge left the NCMC all on their own. Being in a conference with a bunch of class 2 & 3 teams wasn't helping them at all. Helias on the other hand was not exactly wanted around. That said, every single NCMC team continues to wrestle Helias each year. That should say it had nothing to do with wrestling. Most schools still play Helias in every single sport except football, so maybe you should take your complaints to the MOSPORTS boards.

I bet Coach Jeffries would be proud to know one of his former players is on the boards crying and complaining about the multiplier. My bet, and it is a good bet, is that He would tell you to suck it up and go on about your business.

You need to ask Ted, Craig, Rob, Chris and the rest of the 84-85 teams if they think they could beat this years OP team. They are all smart guys and I am sure they would tell you that you are nuts.

[McLaughlin]

FYI on the 1984-85 Crusaders...
Jefferson City High School defeated them head to head in the only dual between the teams that season by a score of 32-30. That match broke the Crusaders 74 dual match victory streak.

Of course Helias rebounded to win the 3A state title very convincingly. We (Jeff City) finished 3rd in 4A to the very good Hazelwood West and Ft. Zumwalt teams.

[Loethen]

I will list the Hypo duel

That might be cool

By the way, I never complianed about the mult, I could care less about it. Like I said over and over again, I wish we were a one or two class state.

[legrider]

It is a fact that the Mult was used to kick Helias out of the NCMC. It also had nothing to do with wrestling and everything to do with football. I stated that earlier.

It was stated by the NCMC that based on the mult, Helias is to large of a school to remain in the NCMC. Rockbridge was also kicked out. That is the truth of it.

I will still take the 84-85 Crusaders against any OP team period. In a duel that team was untouchable. Remember Helias is #3 in the country in all time duel wins, where is OP?

I don't like the mult, but I also don't care about it because I don't think it hurts any school in wrestling, like I said I wish we were a 1 or 2 class state.

All boys schools do need a mult of some kind, becuase a school of 500 males is not the same of a school of 500 students.



Combat "Don't like and Don't care" I think constitutes complaining about the multiplier! :roll:

[dartplayer1]

It is a fact that the Mult was used to kick Helias out of the NCMC. It also had nothing to do with wrestling and everything to do with football. I stated that earlier.

It was stated by the NCMC that based on the mult, Helias is to large of a school to remain in the NCMC. Rockbridge was also kicked out. That is the truth of it.

I will still take the 84-85 Crusaders against any OP team period. In a duel that team was untouchable. Remember Helias is #3 in the country in all time duel wins, where is OP?

I don't like the mult, but I also don't care about it because I don't think it hurts any school in wrestling, like I said I wish we were a 1 or 2 class state.

All boys schools do need a mult of some kind, becuase a school of 500 males is not the same of a school of 500 students.


That is so much bull$hit.

Rockbridge had given notice 4 years before they left the NCMC that they would be leaving because they had out grown the NCMC and it did not do them any good to compete with the likes of Moberly, Fulton, Kirksville, and Mexico.

And as far as Helias the schools did take a vote

Moberly, Mexico and Fulton voted for Helias to leave the NCMC and Marshall, Hannibal and Kirksville voted for them to stay.

So the vote was tied with Helias yet to vote but insted of Helias voting to stay they said they would leave the NCMC because the 3 schools that voted to remove them had said that if Helias was not removed they would leave the NCMC and they did not want to be the cause of desolving of the NCMC.

Combat Wrestler you should know the facts before you try to post about them!!!!!!

[Loethen]

I do know the facts, what excuse did the three schools use. They said under the multiplier Helias is to big to be in the cnf.

That was right from the JC newspaper.

But it was not about wrestling it was football. I think if it was left to the wrestling coaches The NCMC would have stayed together.

Also Helias offered to pull out of NCMC football if the rest of the sports could stay, that was denied by the cnf also

[dartplayer1]

Those 3 schools have used that excuse for many years long before the multiplier.

Hell next it will be Hannibal that is to big for those 3 schools then Marshall.

[Loethen]

Like I said earlier, I think it was on another post along the same lines. I am real surprised Han stayed in the NCMC I heard a few years ago they were going to go to the GAC.

Dart Player, Is Whitney still coaching at Marshall --- He was on of the strongest kids I ever wrestled. Not to mention a hell of a good wrestler.

As I said over and over agin, I am not opposed to the mult in Helias case becuase I think CL 3 is a lot tougher and would rather see them wrestle the larger schools. I wish there were only 2 classes or 1 for that matter.

However, the principle of the mult, the way it was done, and the way it was used just bothers me. It was used to punish private schools for thier success.

I do think a mult should be used in an all male or all female school.

[sherapop]

Please do not lash out to rudely for what I am about to say about the mutliplier.

I am a track coach at a semi-large class 2 wrestling, 3 track-basketball, and 4 football school. We are a rural, impoverished, consolidated school. A few years ago we were the most impoverished county in the state and we do currently run the longest bus routes daily. From what we were told as coaches the multiplier evened out the playing field by raising the private schools in their classifications. I realize that we have over 1000 students to choose from for athletics but our students have no transportation other than buses that don't run after athletics. They need to quit athletics and work to buy a car because 90% of the parents won't get them one. Our athletics suffer tremendously because students do not have parents that can come and get them 30 miles (one way) every day. This is not the problem at a private school or in some towns where everyone lives closer. I grew up in a small town of 4000 and this was not an issue as most of the kids lived within the city limits or at least had a friend nearby . The kids attending private schools for the most part have very supportive parents or they would not be sending them. I battle with parents that want there kids to drop out and work, to heck with athletics. A small rural school with 200 kids can not get as much athletic participation as a private school of the same size and therefore should not have to compete at the same level. They also are not filling their team with the same caliper of students. I think that the multiplier has its merits and its flaws. I had never thought of it as a dig at Helias, merely a way to help the public schools. Remember that for the most part, good kids come from good supportive parents which is the norm at a private school. As someone that has been in public education for 18 years I can tell you, that is not always the norm any more in the public schools. Our enrollment numbers will include kids in state schools, students attending special schools (like a CP center), and many students that would not be in a private school due to physical and emotional disabilities. We also cannot choose who is enrolled. If anyone else out there is from a rural area please help me out on this. Our athletics are good until high school since they each compete for their little school, but come time for high school and they no longer have the necessary transportation. Some people may not understand just how tough some coaches have it. We will more than likely move up in wrestling year to class 3 and do not have a town in our county that is larger than 1500 people, to a school like ours .35 doesn't even begin to level the playing field.

Also, a boys school of 500 is treated more like a school of 1000 when it comes to classification (I am almost positive on this)

Thank you,
Coach who sadly loses many good athletes

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Interesting perspective.

[fudge tunnel]

come on, tell us what school you're talking about?!?!?!

[Loethen]

Coach,

I feel your pain, really it does suck. If that was the reason the mult was put in place I can rationalize it a little more.

However, what happens when you compete against a wrestling program in CL 3 like Park Hill, or SCW schools in fairly well to do districts that have pretty much what ever they need. Should they be given a mult also.

I don't think its fair that my parents pay taxes to the public schools and sent all my bros and sises to Helias. My kids go to public school I have no problem paying the taxes, and vote yes on every increase. The benifit is a great school, honestly nicer than what I had at Helias.

Some, not all of the public schools are nicer and have better facilities than the private schools.

I could go into the difference between dioccesian schools, like Helias, Springfield Catholic , etc and the other Catholic Schools Rockhurst, CBC, SLUH etc. There really is a large difference in resources (also the Jesuit and CB schools charge a lot more to attend) So should CBC, et all be given a larger mult than S Cath, Helias, or others Catholic schools.

There is a huge diff from dist to dist, but once this Pandoras box is opened I don't think it can be shut. Next thing you know if a district rec's more than X number of dollars and tax revenue they would get a mult.

A lot of parents move to better school dists just to get thier kids in better schools. I know when we were moving back to MO from IN, I looked hard at all the schools in the area and picked the best one for my kids.

[sherapop]

I am from McDonald County (extreme southwest corner). My son is freshman Kord Stancell 189. We are currently growing rapidly since Benton County, Arkansas (home of Wal-Mart) is running out of room. Predictions are that we won't be rural for long (sadly). If you haven't been down this way in a while you wouldn't recognize NW AR. It is supposed to rival Dallas-Fortworth in 6-10 years (US News and World Report prediction)

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Combat/Sader, that is the best point you've made in the history of you posting on this site. (Too bad I'll have to wait another year to get another good post out of you :-D )

[Loethen]

Yeah you won't be. I wish I bought some property in MC or NWAR 5 years ago.

I travel down that way for business about every other month. it amazes me how much you guys are growing

[Jay]

sherapop
just curious, how could it be rivalling DFW in 6-10 yrs. and be impoverished? Seems that you would see just the opposite effect, if that many people are moving in, it must be becoming pretty uptown, people don't flock into impoverished areas typically. :?

[sherapop]

McDonald County has always been an extremly poor county. This will change and is. Land around the state line on highway 71 is going for millions and that is not an overstatement. In one year a staggaring amount of construction has occurred and it has just begun. And yes, it will be bringing in some higher income families. There is a 900 home subdivision in the country about 10 miles north of Arkansas with homes averaging 4-500000. It has been slow developing with only 15-20? homes built so far. Pineville (where it is located) only has a pop. of around 1000. The schools can't handle the growth and will also have trouble finding affordable land to build on as they grow. If you like the quiet ways of the country, McDonald county that is historic for being a bunch of rednecks is not the place to move. also, remember that the main growth is in Arkansas in the top 2 northwest counties north of Fayetteville. We will grow simply because of overflow. Rumor has it that instead of Branson being where a midwest Disney would be, they are looking at land in McDonald and Benton Counties. I hope not.

happy to be a redneck,
sherapop

[sherapop]

I forgot to add that Bentonville is growing so fast because Wal-Mart is requiring their vendors to move to the Bentonville area. It is not that we have anything to offer, they are just out of room in Benton county.

[Loethen]

That is true on the vendors we had to move two down there last year

[fudge tunnel]

sherapop - I'm not arguing that your area is growing fast, which I'm sure it is. But rival Dallas/FW?!?!?

DFW metro area has about 5.2 million people right now.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Rumor has it that instead of Branson being where a midwest Disney would be, they are looking at land in McDonald and Benton Counties. I hope not.


That would, however, bring a lot of tax revenue to your county and ultimately better facilities for your schools.

[MG_Grievous]

DFW metro area has about 5.2 million people right now.

Don't ever drive through downtown Dallas at around 10 PM. :?

[fudge tunnel]

Why not? Dallas is breeze to get around in. I've never had a problem there.....of course I avoid rush hour traffic at all costs. Getting from Deep Ellum back to Highland Park at 2am is sometimes tricky, though.

Houston, however, is a whole different story.

[MG_Grievous]

Why not?

Personal experience.

I believe it was on a Friday night though. Plus, after many hours of driving lonely highways, it was quite a shock.



Houston, however, is a whole different story.

Oh that was fun too. I thought I-45 was going to kill me. Crazy, crazy, crazy drivers.

At least I had 5-6 lanes to choose from. :doubt:

[sdrblu]

There have been some questions in this discussion about how the MSHAA calculates all-boys and all-girls schools. Same-sex schools are first, doubled, and then the doubled figure is multiplied by 1.35.

For example,

If Notre Dame de Sion (all-girls, private school) has 500 girls attend, then the # is doubled. Then 1000, is multiplied by 1.35, this equals out to 1, 350 students. The MSHSAA uses 1, 350 students to determine athletic classifications for the school.

[dartplayer1]

Dart Player, Is Whitney still coaching at Marshall --- He was on of the strongest kids I ever wrestled. Not to mention a hell of a good wrestler.

I am not 100% sure but I think he helps with the Jr. High program now.

[fudge tunnel]

Ok, so how many actual human beings/students attend the following schools (w/ MSHSAA's #'s):

DeSmet - 3321
SLUH - 2844
Rockhurst - 2790
CBC - 2733
Chaminade - 1610
MICDS - 785
Helias - 1228
Whitfield - 392
etc....

[sdrblu]

I do not think those are the latest enrollement figures by MSHSAA for the upcoming 06-08 cycly, but, based on those #s, the enrollements would be:

DeSmet - 1,230 (actual), 2460 (doubled), 3321 (after 1.35).
SLUH - 1,053, 2106, 2844
Rockhurst - 1033, 2066, 2789
CBC - 1012, 2024, 2732
Chaminade - 596, 1024, 2732
MICDS - 581, 785
Helias - 909, 1228

MICDS and Heilas are not doubled becuase they are co-ed schools.

[northco]

Whitfield is co-ed too 293 students I think.

[Shoootah]

No excuses, no regrets, Helias has been great in the past , but the past is the past. Lack of depth and mat time will only correct its self thruogh hard work and revived spirit. We will take are lumps and survive the bad times . Congrats to all the programs that are doing well at this time . Wrestling is a great sport , let's all strive to teach our kids to be proud to have survived the tough practices, and the agony of defeat.

[sdrblu]

Lack of depth and mat time will only correct its self thruogh hard work and revived spirit. We will take are lumps and survive the bad times .

Well said. One of my favorite quotes on this site is, "Tradition means nothing unless you work as hard as those who started that tradition." Helias has a great tradition, and it was started becuase of hard work and dedication, the only way Helias will completely revive is by working as hard as those guys who started it in the 70's. I think it's Hannibal (not for sure) that has a sign in its wrestling room that says, "Are you working as hard as Helias is?" That's great motivation.

In due time, I think Helias will rise again, don't forget that they've really only had one "terrible" season, and that was last year. In 2003, they clinched their 12th wrestling title, and in 2004, they had 2 state champions who pinned their opponents in every round (112 Kusick, also ranked in the nation). Don't give up on Helias, they have almost everyone returning next year.