Kirdsville coach and Fulton coach are kindered spirits

[ncmcalumni]

OK, this is for the Kirksville coach. I am calling you out! You have a very good team with a lot of kids that will score 6 pnts each dual, so why is it you let Alter take the win @ 160 last night after a very questionable unnessecary roughness call when Keleher was winning 6-1?

What happened to sportsmanship and honor. If you have it, you didn't show it last night. I personally thought you where a good guy and understood the unwritten code!

Your team is too good for you to do something like that! It was cheap!

[fudge tunnel]

so why is it you let Alter take the win @ 160 last night after a very questionable unnessecary roughness call when Keleher was winning 6-1?


Please go into more depth. What exactly happened?

[ncmcgrappling]

first keleher was up on alter 6-1 and keleher had him in a cradle alter kicked out and tried to do something, not sure what but he hurt his back and they called it unnessesary roughness and kirksvilles coach went out there knowing alter could wrestle but he knew it had been called unnessesary roughness on keleher and so his coach said alter couldn't wrestle and keleher ended up getting dq'ed

[eatmat]

WOW!

What a story....were you even there?

Not even the Moberly coach saw it the way you did.

[ncmcalumni]

Thats pretty much the way it happened. ON THE VIDEO Alter looked like he was trying to do a back flip when he got hurt.

The Kirksville coach did say that Alter was hurt before the match, which is one more reason he should have not taken the win. It is'nt right.

[fanof2]

Add the Camdenton coach to the list. He wouldn't even send two of his wrestlers out on the mat against the FULTON wrestlers. Don't get me wrong. I personally can't wait until Fulton gets a new coach because Brooks is a joke, but both Chris Perry (Freshman) and Dustin Hill (Sophomore) waited all night to wrestle only to find out they wouldn't because Camdenton already had enough points to win so they forfeited the matches to Perry and Hill. I guess since their wrestlers at that weight had already gotten their butts kicked by the Perry and Hill over the weekend, the coach wanted to avoid further humiliation.

Of course, he could always use the excuse that he didn't want to get his wrestlers hurt or that the matches didn't matter since there was no way Fulton could win the dual, but it is still a pretty crappy thing to do.

[eatmat]

really....James Alter did not do a back flip....that was Jessie Alter who tried the back flip when Gibbs had a single leg on him...wrong match

James was dumped on his head (unintentionally) when he was injured. The call was a hold that "slipped" into an "illegal hold" that Keleher followed through on. A judgment call on the refs part.

Alter had had a back injury this past summer. kirksvilles coach when interviewed stated that he would have given up the points gladly to not have Alter injured. Possibly losing Alter for the season is not worth a win.

[cardsfsc]

The Kirksville coaches are class acts, no way do I believe they pull a stunt like that.

[Class_3_Fan]

I guess since their wrestlers at that weight had already gotten their butts kicked by Perry and Hill over the weekend, the coach wanted to avoid further humiliation.

Fanof2 -

Get your facts straight before you spout off on a message board.

Camdenton didn't have a 103# pounder over the weekend at Harrisonville. They went open all day just like they did at the Fulton dual. I guess if you had been at Harrisonville, you would have know that.

Regarding 119#, the Camdenton wrestler who wrestled Hill at Harrisonville on the weekend did NOT even weigh-in for the Fulton dual. He was home sick all day.

Humiliated ?????? I don't think Camdenton had anything to be humiliated about in the Fulton dual. With 3 starters home sick (12-6, 12-4, & 15-4 records), Camdenton had to give up 12 points in forfeits yet still won the dual 51-27 including 7 falls in either the first or second period.

Maybe this is your way of trying to deflect your humilation ?

[C2Rankingforfun]

OUCH! :lol:

Fanof2 in the running for moron of the year

[ncmcalumni]

eatmat - it was not called an illegal hold, it was called unnecessary roughness.

Regardless of all of your excuses the coach should not have taken the win. It just isn't accepted in wrestling.

A classic example is last years state tournament when the Helias coaches didn't take the win in the semis when Markway got hurt. By not taking the win they cost themselves a finalist. It was the right thing to do.

Maybe you will understand when one of your kids gets the shaft this way!

[RP-in-Nebraska]

eatmat - it was not called an illegal hold, it was called unnecessary roughness.

Regardless of all of your excuses the coach should not have taken the win. It just isn't accepted in wrestling.

A classic example is last years state tournament when the Helias coaches didn't take the win in the semis when Markway got hurt. By not taking the win they cost themselves a finalist. It was the right thing to do.

Maybe you will understand when one of your kids gets the shaft this way!

The Markway match last year at state was the exception - that's why it was discussed as such a classy move. Right or wrong, what the Kirksville coach did is the norm.

[Denmom]

I was sitting next to the Helias team at STate and they all talked about how they would not take a win like that. Either you win or you lose. They showed great Class there and didn't have to. That was the exception to the rule.

[ncmcalumni]

[/quote] The Markway match last year at state was the exception - that's why it was discussed as such a classy move. Right or wrong, what the Kirksville coach did is the norm.[/quote]


I have been around wrestling for 20 years and that is the first time someone called that the norm.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Tell me NCMCalumni, other than the Markway match, when was the last time you saw a wrestler injury default after getting hurt by his opponent by what the ref ruled an illegal move just so the other wrestler wouldn't lose by DQ. I've never seen it happen before. On the other hand, I believe that this Kirksville match is the 3rd match this year that has been discussed on these boards about wrestlers taking the win when they were losing because they were "hurt" by an illegal move by their opponent. I am neither praising nor criticizing, just stating that it is the norm.

I'm glad I can open your eyes after 20 years. :-)

[ncmcalumni]

YEP, you really opened my eyes.

I did quiet a bit of officiating in the early 90's and had several occassions where we would start and stop the match so the uninjured kid could take the win. I should say that these where situations where the injury did not happen as a malicous act, just hard wrestling.

I would like to hear from anyone that thinks taking the win is a good practice!

I would like to hear from anyone that thinks taking the win is a good practice!

Maybe when district seeding comes around?

[ncmcalumni]

frank,

LOL

That will be when it all comes down! They will see each other at districts in a few weeks. I would love to hear that conversation.

[fudge tunnel]

I did quiet a bit of officiating in the early 90's and had several occassions where we would start and stop the match so the uninjured kid could take the win. I should say that these where situations where the injury did not happen as a malicous act, just hard wrestling.

I would like to hear from anyone that thinks taking the win is a good practice!

It's too bad Coach Stockdale and Scott Sader didn't do the same thing in the state semis in '89 against Brent Trickell. Sader was getting kicked around and was "slammed" - very suspect call. There's no way Sader would have won that match. Sader takes the DQ and gets tech'd by Fry in the finals. Trickell and Fry would have been a great match. Cowardly move by Stockdale and Knob Noster.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

YEP, you really opened my eyes.

I did quiet a bit of officiating in the early 90's and had several occassions where we would start and stop the match so the uninjured kid could take the win. I should say that these where situations where the injury did not happen as a malicous act, just hard wrestling.

I would like to hear from anyone that thinks taking the win is a good practice!

If a kid must default due to an injury from hard wrestling, that's unfortunate but that happens and that kid must take the loss. If a kid gets hurt by what was ruled an illegal throw/slam/hold/etc. then the kid has every right to take the win and allow the other kid to take the DQ loss. Again, right or wrong, that's what happens most of the time.

[fowler]

Gotta agree with you RP,,its the competitive nature of the sport. :smt021

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Let me clarify, the kid has the right to take the win if he is actually hurt and can't continue. If he can continue, he shouldn't fake it to take the cheap win. In Markway's case, he realized he couldn't wrestle in the finals and therefore defaulted to allow the other wrestler to advance - again, a classy move.

[fowler]

I agree,,however if it is an obviously intentional move resulting in an injury, the wrestler that it was inflicted on should not hesitate to take the win if truly unable to complete the match (for actual injury or a justified further examination). If the offending wrestler takes the opponent over his own waist, he is responsible for the safe return of the other wrestler. I have seen some slams that certainly appeared to be intentional.

[Venuswalks]

Greathouse from Whitfield 4 or 5 years ago was slammed by a Centralia kid in the medal round and continued.

Also, Park Hill (brockman?) hurt an oakville kid. The oakville wrestler wanted to restart the match, but recovery time had run out and was not allowed to. He ended up with a 6th place medal, but wanted to defalt and allow Park Hill to advance.

[oxman]

In the early 90s was the first time I remember this being done at State.
Our kid was in the wrestle-backs at State. The winner of the match would be guaranteed a medal.
Our wrestler was Demetrius Bledsoe(brother of Curtis Bledsoe).
He was wrestling Chris Bunton, returning State Champ from Blue Springs.
Demetrius was injured via illegal slam. He agreed to wrestle for ONE second and concede the victory to Bunton.
I will always respect his decision.... =D> :smt023
Demetrius.....You da man....
8)

[The Truth]

Did the coach asked to be put into this situation? Did the coach lift his own wrestler up? Did the coach make the call? Why is it that the coach has only one way of looking classy? His only move is to GIVE the match to the other wrestler. I think Dan Gable said it best don't let the official into the match. With that said this is wrestling.....the greatest sport of all.....It is bad enough that we have 4 classes and everyone should get a medal. Know opposing coaches should give away matches to opponents that injure their wrestlers or they are deemed classless or without honor. Coach Stockdale is a very good coach and has been a great influence on many young men over the years. I hope that we teach more then just winning in this sport and that we teach responsibility. It is a shame that these things happen but this whole notion of giving things to people is the beginning of the woosification of America and it shouldn't happen in wrestling. There is nothing unethical or dishonorable in following the rules and teaching these young men that sometimes life hurts. The lesson learned here is accountability if you pick a wrestler up off the mat you must return him safely in the officials eyes or deal with the consequences. Wrestling should teach us responsibilty and it sounds to me that many now want a medal without earning it and also want to be given matches in which the action that they themselves took was deemed unneccesary.

[stillman]

[quote="The Truth"] I hope that we teach more then just winning in this sport and that we teach responsibility.

Wasn't that the point of the post?

the woosification of America-That's just funny, right there. I don't care who you are! :lol:

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Chris Bunton, returning State Champ from Blue Springs.


My brother had the honor of being pinned by him. :-D

[legrider]

The Truth

If I am not mistaken the penalty for an illegal slam (which is judgement call) is one point not a DQ which is a big difference here. What I have a problem with is, if it is used to get a win in a situation where the only way the other wrestler would win would be for the DQ, or for it to be used to decide a match with the coach making the call because of the match not because of safety sake. Mr Brooks in Fulton and notice I don't use "Coach" should be held accountable for teaching young men and women more than wrestling, considering he is a teacher. I wonder what he would do, if he caught a student cheating to get an A in his class?

Is it the "End Result" or "how you get there that counts"? I know what I want to be taught to my children!

[oxman]

In the case of a DQ(disqualification), a wrestler or coach has no ability to reverse the victory.
In the case of injury due to an illegal hold, including an illegal slam or unnecessary roughness,
a coach COULD employ the one second rule to give the victory back to the other kid.
SOMETIMES, this is the right thing to do....
Sometimes it is not, depending on the circumstances and situation.
It is the decision of the coach and wrestler, to OCCASIONALLY give up the victory that the rules allow them,
in order to do what they feel is sportsmanlike.
8)

[fudge tunnel]

Also, Park Hill (brockman?) hurt an oakville kid. The oakville wrestler wanted to restart the match, but recovery time had run out and was not allowed to. He ended up with a 6th place medal, but wanted to defalt and allow Park Hill to advance.

His senior year, Brockman had been warned several times that the move used and was DQ'd on was illegal. It was not accident. Then his daddy decided to punt a trash can into the arena....

[Hannibal King]

You guys are forgetting an obvious one in the semis of the 3A state 145 pound bracket in 2001... Jake Dean vs Aaron Schrimpf.. nobody deserves to lose like that... Dean goes on to get dominated by Teeman when Schrimpf vs. Teeman would have been a great match..

[jstickel]

Say what you will about coach Darby and how he is classless that is a bunch of garbage. He is one of the hardest working coaches in the sport at any level and has a passion and respect for the sport that is unmatched by any. Coach Darby has probably lost a quality senior leader for at least a couple of weeks and that will create some new challenges for his team, but they will rise to the occasion and I am sure that by making your obsurd statements that you will light a fire under his team they will rally behind him and they will be stronger than ever. There is no norm in this case as some have mentioned. Coach Darby is a class act and deserves more than just some sour grapes thrown at him.

[MG_Grievous]

Legrider, where you at?

[ncmcalumni]

I think I made it very clear in my original post that I have respect for the coach adn the entire kirksville team.

My beef is with his actions in this one match. Alter was not slammed, he never even left the mat. Keleher was called for unecessary roughness, which if anyone could view the tape you may question, the coach comes out takes his two minutes then the win. Alter was losing 6-1 and this match was the difference in the dual meet.

9 out of 10 coaches tell there kid to get up, have the ref start and stop the match and then give the win to the other kid. Sorry that IS the norm.

But as someone posted earlier, we will get a chance for the coach to show his true colors at the district seeding meeting. If he steps up and claims the win as if his kid actually one the match we will know his motives.

These where two ranked kids both of which are very good and it shouldn't have ended like it did.

The good thing is they will have another chance to straighten it out on the mat, which is really where it counts.

[eatmat]

kirksvilles coach went out there knowing alter could wrestle but he knew it had been called unnessesary roughness on keleher and so his coach said alter couldn't wrestle and keleher ended up getting dq'ed

This does not sound like respect to me. And where my beef with you begins and ends.

To even consider for a moment that Darby would have a wrestler fake an injury for six points is ridiculous and DISRESPECTFUL!

[ncmcalumni]

bla, bla, bla

[cardsfsc]

I'm guessing the seeding meeting really won't have a huge difference. If Weston needs a high seed to make it out then I'd guess he doesn't deserve to go on. The kid is a quality wrestler and wasn't undefeated so take it as a life lesson and move on. My guess is Weston has already moved on...just more motivation if you ask me.
As for Coach Darby and Coach Hooper, I have all the faith in the world that they did what they felt was right considering the situation.

[legrider]

MG, I am getting ready to head to St. Charles West for the weekend. Wrestling and the Gambling Boat (What a Pair). Should be a great tournament and hopefully I will win a little money. I heard that Fort Zumwalt had to pull out because of an infection. Was really looking forward to seeing Weist wrestle.

[jstickel]

9 out of 10 thats a great stat have you done some graduate research on this topic. Again say what you will but if you have ever spent any time around coach Darby you would know this injury was serious and it boils down what the rules are not what you think should happen and I bet if the shoe was on the other foot you would be the first guy screaming for it to go the other way. With that said I am done this is ridiculous to argue about, but when you attack the character of one of the finest men I know I take offense..

[RP-in-Nebraska]

I think I made it very clear in my original post that I have respect for the coach adn the entire kirksville team.


:-s ............Wow, my interpretation of your original post is much different than your interpretation.............. :-k

OK, this is for the Kirksville coach. I am calling you out! You have a very good team with a lot of kids that will score 6 pnts each dual, so why is it you let Alter take the win @ 160 last night after a very questionable unnessecary roughness call when Keleher was winning 6-1?

What happened to sportsmanship and honor. If you have it, you didn't show it last night. I personally thought you where a good guy and understood the unwritten code!

Your team is too good for you to do something like that! It was cheap!

[NCMC4life]

Alter out with mild consussion

By Jason Hunsicker
KIRKSVILLE - As bad as the injury appeared to be to his back Tuesday night at Moberly, Kirksville wrestler James Alter's doctors are more concerned with a concussion sustained during the same frightening moment.

Trailing his 160-pound match in the second period against No. 2 Weston Keleher, Alter was picked up off the mat and thrown down onto his upper back and neck.

Moberly's Keleher was penalized for an illegal move and Alter, who was unable to continue and had to be carried from the mat, was awarded the victory.

Kirksville head coach Patrick Darby said Friday Alter sustained a mild concussion during the move. He will be re-evaluated this week, though he has been cleared to resume non-contact activities beginning Monday.

Alter's back, which he has struggled with throughout the season, isn't the leading concern at this time, Darby said, meaning when the concussion subsides he can return to the mat.

"That's big because we don't want a kid hurt, first, for his health, and second, because he still has a chance to finish the season," Darby said.

Darby also disagreed with Moberly head coach Sam Richardson, who said in Wednesday's edition of the Moberly Monitor-Index that Alter was injured when he attempted to do a back flip to get out of Keleher's grasp.

"That's absolutely ridiculous," Darby said. "Keleher had him picked up all the way in the air. You can't do a back flip when your feet are all the way up in the air."

Darby said Alter's brother, Jesse, is the only Tiger who attempts to pull off a back flip during matches. That's something Darby said he, and even James, have been trying to get Jesse to stop.

"[James] tells his brother he's silly for doing it," Darby said.

With Alter out of the lineup, the Tigers lose one of their top competitors in both matches and practices.

"As far as practice partners go, he's one of the best technical wrestlers on the team," Darby said.

[underhook]

About four or five years ago, OX you may remember? I had a wrestler, Darrel Givens wrestling a kid from Clinton High School in the Helias tournament hook up a cradle (similar to what it sounds Keleher did) the kid on bottom went backwards to his head and hit the mat real hard. We were hit with unnessary roughness. It was early in the season the win/ loss thing was not important, but to this day I believe the bottom wrestler caused the unnessary roughness. Heres why I believe this to be true. The bottom wrestler knew he could not stop the outside cradle he was up on all fours so he tried to entend his body and break the grip of the cradle by exploding backwards thus landing on his head. After the match I discussed it with Matt Zeitz who was refferring the match -my point is it's a tough call to make.

After reading the article on Alter, I think I would side on the part of the coach. None of us were there. This wasn't the state tournament. Keleher is a great wrestler and to his benefit this could be a life-lesson for him.

Hopefully the coaches intentions were to keep the best interests of his wrestler in mind. The kid most obviously had a concussion. And the coach was probably was more worried about the kids health than that of winning or losing the match.

Very few coaches have experienced the pain of losing a match when you have a superior wrestler lose to a wrestler who is obviosly better.

Last year Jamie Luckett was on the other end of that circumstance when he hit a double leg takedown in the semi-s of class 3 189 lbs. Jamie Lucket hit a bars -gar double and and hit it hard ( he's kind of strong) . In fact its the first double leg (bars-gar finish) I've ever seen called a slam. I think if the Helias wrestler would have turned to the mat he would have been fine, but he tried defending the takedown in mid air wound up land on his hip and back. Now I've seen a double called a slam when a wrestler picks them up over their head and slams them to the mat. The BARS- GAR finish you finish by taking the opponents legs out in a golf swing motion. It is a mid level level finish.

Obviously Jamie was lucky (as it has been discussed here before) and it was agaist Helias who made the "Classsiest move of the Decade" and restarted the match and the Helias defending state champ defaulted out to 6th because they were truly injured.

Why did they restart? Many believe because they had been victims of the other side of the coin where Aaron Shrimp was called a slam agaist a kid in the quarter finals ?( I believe). The wrestler in this case was to most peoples opinions not injured very seriously and in most people opinion's could have continued the match. The wrestler who won against Shrimp continued to wrestle and made it to the finals. This experience has definitleystuck in the minds of many coaches as it did with the coaching staff at Helias. To this day Jamie thanks you! :supz:

[RP-in-Nebraska]

....Matt Zeitz ....

Is he still reffing? Does anybody know what he is up to? He's a friend of mine that I haven't spoken to in quite a while. Last I heard he was reffing college matches. I also saw a Zeitz listed as a golf? or tennis? coach for Helias.

Thanks

[ncmcalumni]

I am glad alter has recovered enough to have wrestled last weekend at the PC tournament.