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Tom Araya
10-04-2006, 03:26 PM
I have decided to vote Democratic this fall.

I believe in small government, free markets, strong defense, etc., but Bush’s snafu in Iraq is just too much. It overwhelms those issues which for many years made me vote GOP. In addition to screwing up so far, there is zero evidence that he’s changed, or that he “gets it,” or anything.

There is another aspect that makes this easier for me. Bush has not followed a conservative agenda (not that the Democrats would); he has increased the spending, size, and reach of government, mostly in the name of fighting terror. Historically, there has been a conservative philosophy. Today, most people & media use “conservative” as shorthand for “loyal Bush supporter.” But, as many have observed, Bush is no conservative.

I have a hard time at this point, saying, “Yes, this war has been horribly executed and there is no prospect for improvement, let me pull the lever for more of the same.”

Midterm elections are a referendum on the party in power; they are not just about the local races. The only contest in which I vote that is in doubt is the Talent/McCaskill race, but the sum of our votes do comprise a national referendum, and the news people will add up what happened and count the wins and losses. Who we vote for in ’06, especially for Congress, matters. As for ‘08, that’s two years from now. Who knows what will happen then? The GOP candidate will almost certainly run away from Bush so quickly and completely, so 2008 will be a different situation, most likely not a referendum on Bush.

In deciding how to vote, there is the over-arching question, “How important is the war on terror, Iraq, and the whole security threat represented by related issues?” If one says “Yes, really important, number one, that trumps all other issues,” and one also says, “Bush fouled up. Big time,” … then that is the justification for voting Democratic in 2006. I view this November’s election mainly as a vote for, or against, Bush, more than as a vote for a Republican or a Democrat

On the other hand, one could say, ” Despite ALL of the stuff the Bush administration has fubar’d, if the Democrats have not put forth anything better, any plan or strategy that is viable, … how do they deserve my vote? Just because they exist as an alternative to the current failure? … I cannot vote for a party whose platform and ideals conflict directly with mine.” That’s a position I respect.

“But the Democrats will cut and run.”

Let’s get real for a minute. No one is going to send more troops. It is not going to happen. So Dem or GOP, we are looking at “staying the course,” or “cutting and running,” or some course in between.

Iraq is totally hopeless. Today, now, it is beyond any rational expectation of recovery. I cannot foresee anything like victory, not by any remote definition, such as “getting Iraq to slightly stable, barely functioning, almost worthwhile kind of place.” I cannot see how to get there. I can see us staying there for a long, long time. 150,000 US troops, well-armed and well-supplied, in secure bases, are not easy to dislodge and are not even easy to hit with high casualties. Our guys are very smart and very tough. The insurgency cannot “drive us out” or even inflict “unacceptable” casualties. What this means, combined with what I can see from internet debates is that as long as we meet some threshhold, as long the troops can hang on, then the “true believers” will say “There is hope. We are winning. Look at the ELECTIONS!” If we’re waiting for a defeat in battle, some military rout of the Americans, that is not going to happen. Do we then stay indefinitely, spectators to chaos? No Democratic politician will say it, but maybe they would be the party of “cut and run.”

How long does the party of “stay the course," even although we have brought things to this violent, fractured, unpromising, unending situation, deserve my vote? If there is any magic formula, some way out (not that I can see one), at this point I have zero confidence in Bush’s and Rumsfeld’s ability to find it.

7wells
10-04-2006, 04:45 PM
[quote="Tom Araya"]I have decided to vote Democratic this fall.


OH WHAT A SUPRISE!!!

T.D.C.Dad
10-04-2006, 04:55 PM
I second that . :wink: voting Democrate that is.

Tom Araya
10-04-2006, 07:02 PM
I have decided to vote Democratic this fall.


OH WHAT A SUPRISE!!!

What an in-depth intelligent response.

MG_Grievous
10-04-2006, 07:04 PM
After viewing repeated McCaskill and Talent attack ads, I'm not sure about anything.

Tom Araya
10-04-2006, 07:08 PM
I agree, they're both mining the bottom of the barrel.

But Talent has continually voted for the president's disastrous plans. . .that trumps attack ads, IMO.

RP-in-Nebraska
10-05-2006, 12:42 PM
Iraq is a tough issue and I think many people will feel the way that Tom feels. However, I also think that many people will feel that homeland security is as much or more important than Iraq. The democrats have consistently opposed the Republican plans for what they feel is the best way to tackle interrogation of Gitmo detainees, federal wire-tappinng for foreign phone calls from suspicious people, Mexican border security, etc.

Also, right now gas is less than $2 per gallon, unemployment is low, taxes are low, and the stock market is at record highs. This in my mind is good news for republicans but is NOT the most important issue.

Iraq will dominate this election year and I think democrats will win back a lot of seats. However, my view of the war and homeland security will cause me to vote republican.

IF, there were competent moderate democrats who fully opposed abortion, I would seriously consider voting for them.

oxman
10-05-2006, 12:53 PM
RP---If a person opposes abortion there is little room in the Democratic Party as a politician...
The economy is awesome!!!!.....But, that no longer matters.....
"It's the economy, stupid!"... :)
It would be NICE to actually discuss issues and their possible solutions....
BUT.....it seems personal attacks rule the day.!!....
8)

swormer
10-05-2006, 12:59 PM
IF, there were competent moderate democrats who fully opposed abortion, I would seriously consider voting for them.


RP don't take this the wrong way but I have always felt that people who vote pro-life or pro-choice are wasting their vote. Especially when voting for senators and reps. IMO the only way abortion laws will change is with the supreme court. Politicians have been using this issue for a decade or so to gain the support of religious, pro-life voters.

RP-in-Nebraska
10-05-2006, 01:48 PM
Ox, your brilliance never ceases to amaze me. For a while there, shortly after 9-11-2001, I thought our country's politicians would actually stick up for each other. It happened for about 6 months or so then it was back to politics as usual.

Swormer, you are correct on the Supreme Court thing. However, there always seems to be some sort of abortion legislation that is in the news and in my opinion, it can't hurt to vote in the candidates with whom I agree. Furthermore, as I'm sure you already know, the Supreme Court is appointed by the President so if there is a president who feels the same way I do, then there is a greater chance of getting a justice appointed who feels that same way. Perhaps, I'm wasting my vote but I couldn't vote in good conscience the other way.

Tom Araya
10-05-2006, 02:15 PM
Abortion is one of those issues that I go back & forth on all the time. Yes, I hate that it exists. But yes, I still think it should be allowed in extraordinary circumstances, such as rape, incest, health of mother, etc.

The problem with the debate, at least in political circles, is that it's either an "all or nothing" thing. This is an area that does have a shade of grey, but to seize upon this political middle ground only alienates you from those opposed to & those who support abortion. It's a no-win situation.

As to how politicians use this debate to further their means, the Republicans have controlled all branches of government for six years. They've done nothing at either the legislative or judicial levels to make abortion anymore illegal today than it was six years ago, save a few minor adjustments to legislation. I must come to the conclusion that the Republican Party only intends to continue using this as a wedge issue to help them continue to garner the vote of the religious right.

swormer
10-05-2006, 02:18 PM
Tom, well said that is what I was trying to say, you just said it better.

Tom Araya
10-05-2006, 02:22 PM
New reasons to vote Dem this time:

I can hardly believe my eyes and ears as I watch the party of "family values" duck and cover while a scandal unfolds that they could have stopped a long time ago.

I can hardly believe my eyes and ears as I watch excuse after excuse over a set of e-mails that any parent would immediately know is not only inappropriate but a prelude to a predator's first steps -- winning the trust of a young person before taking full advantage of that trust.

I knew I couldn't trust the Republican leadership to protect Social Security and Medicare.

I knew I couldn't trust them to honor their responsibility to respect the checks and balances written into the Constitution when it comes to standing up to the Bush Administration on this horrific war.

I knew I couldn't trust them to protect the environment.

I knew I couldn't trust them to protect the middle class when they owe their very existence to the special interests.

But I truly thought I could trust them to protect the young people who serve as Congressional pages and who count on them. By any standard, the Republican leadership has sickeningly failed not only these young people but the American people as well.

And still there are many disturbing issues yet to be answered by the Republicans, including:

-Why did Congressman Alexander, who was contacted by the fearful parents, take the issue to the head of the Republican Congressional Campaign Committee but didn't tell the only Democrat on the Page Board? Was it considered a "political" matter rather than an ethics or criminal matter, as it clearly seemed to be?

-Was Foley's $100,000 contribution to the Republican Congressional Campaign Committee that was accepted in July AFTER the Republican leadership knew of his e-mails some kind of hush money?

The Congress has a twenty-five percent approval rating. I wouldn't be surprised if it now goes down to ZERO.

oldtimer
10-05-2006, 05:39 PM
I going to try something new this year..............................I going to vote for the candidate most qualified for the particular office they are running for..................or Robin Williams......I want to see that movie.

fudge tunnel
10-06-2006, 08:31 AM
or Robin Williams......I want to see that movie.

I met him 2 nites ago in Hollywood at the "Man of the Year" premier party....

oldtimer
10-06-2006, 09:08 AM
or Robin Williams......I want to see that movie.

I met him 2 nites ago in Hollywood at the "Man of the Year" premier party....

I can watch him every night...........The Man of the Year is going to be great...........

fudge tunnel
10-06-2006, 09:14 AM
...........The Man of the Year is going to be great...........

It was.........."ok"............

I was actually expecting it to be quite horrible, but it was slightly better than that. I was pleasantly surprised in that capacity.....

Grauman's Chinese Theatre is pretty cool.....

Also met Danny DeVito, Garry Shandling, Billy Crystal, Laura Linney, Craig T Nelson, Anthony Michael Hall, the fat guy from the t.v. show "The Office", Barry Levinson, some guy from "Charmed", Lis Wheil (Fox News legal analyst), David Crosby.........

oldtimer
10-06-2006, 09:28 AM
...........The Man of the Year is going to be great...........

It was.........."ok"............

I was actually expecting it to be quite horrible, but it was slightly better than that. I was pleasantly surprised in that capacity.....

Grauman's Chinese Theatre is pretty cool.....

Also met Danny DeVito, Garry Shandling, Billy Crystal, Laura Linney, Craig T Nelson, Anthony Michael Hall, the fat guy from the t.v. show "The Office", Barry Levinson, some guy from "Charmed", Lis Wheil (Fox News legal analyst), David Crosby.........

That's pretty cool..................did you go by yourself or did Mrs. Tunnel get to go.....

fudge tunnel
10-06-2006, 09:34 AM
did you go by yourself or did Mr. Tunnel get to go.....

:-s

Ummm.....




Huh?

oldtimer
10-06-2006, 12:13 PM
did you go by yourself or did Mrs. Tunnel get to go.....

:-s

Ummm.....




Huh?

Sorry about that.......I've been posting returns to MG too long.....I fixed it....