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RP-in-Nebraska
08-29-2006, 02:00 PM
Here is the post that I promised Tom. All I am requesting is that for those of you who believe that Bush has intentionally deceived the American people into a war with Iraq for personal gain, please read this post and try to see how a person can come to the logical conclusion that Iraq posed a threat to our Nation. I know it will take some time to read all of it and all of the links but not nearly as much time as it took for me to compile it. I tried to remain respectful and present the information as sincerely as possible.

PREFACE
In his state of the union address, Bush claimed that Iraq was seeking weapons of mass destruction. He has also claimed that Iraq had ties to al Qaeda. These two points are the two strongest cases for war. These two points are what liberals try to prove wrong over and over again. This post will address these two claims.

THE DOWNING STREET MEMO
The Downing Street memo is largely a non-issue. It is a forged memo claiming the same things that liberals had been claiming for months prior to it’s publication. This time it was issued in the form of forgery yet the liberals see this as a smoking gun?

One thing to note, the Downing Street memo mentions talks with Colin Powell. If the memo is 100% truth, which I doubt it is, then there is every reason to believe that Powell knew as much as anybody about Iraq’s WMD’s and al Qaeda ties.

There is one sentence that anti-Bush activists consistently cite as clear proof. That sentence states “But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” Several analysts of this memo have indicated the opinionated nature of this single sentence. When one reads the entire memo in context, it can be noted with reasonable certainty that this sentence is the opinion of the author of the memo – not what was actually discussed in the meeting. Also, note that the meeting was held on July 23, 2002. This was about 5 months after Wilson was sent to Niger at his wife’s (Valerie Plame) request and reporting what was found (more on Wilson later in this post). The Senate Intelligence Committee Report on Pre-War intelligence concerning Iraq stated this on page 73: “The report on the former ambassador's trip to Niger, disseminated in March 2002, did not change any analysts' assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports on the uranium deal, but State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) analysts believed that the report supported their assessment that Niger was unlikely to be wiling or able to sell uranium to Iraq.”
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422 ... 1/sec2.pdf (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/13jul20041400/www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/s108-301/sec2.pdf)
It is also very important to note that British officials have NEVER recanted on their notion that Iraq was pursuing uranium. U.S. officials recanted after it was discovered that the Italian documents upon which the CIA based it’s claim were proven to be forged. The reason Great Britain never recanted is because the reports were true even though the Nigerian documents were forged. Uranium was discovered in Iraq in large quantities after the war was started. I will get into this more deeply later on in this post.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... nium_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-07-07-iraq-uranium_x.htm)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 872201.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3872201.stm)

One last thing on the Downing Street memo. If this memo were 100% accurate, does anybody doubt that Bush, Blair, Powell, Cheney, and other high ranking officials met to discuss such things?

THE DUELFER REPORT
Lets examine what the Duelfer Report says. It indicates basically that no WMD’s were found but also indicates “strong evidence of the intent” to produce or seek WMD’s. It also states that some U.N.-banned non-WMD’s were found which were hidden during the 2002-2003 U.N. inspections. These banned weapons were themselves in direct violation of 14 separate U.N. resolutions and were grounds for military action as stated in those resolutions. David Kay, head of the Iraq Survey Group who issued the Duelfer Report, stated the following in an oral presentation to the Senate Armed Services Committee:

"Based on the intelligence that existed, I think it was reasonable to reach the conclusion that Iraq posed an imminent threat. Now that you know reality on the ground as opposed to what you estimated before, you may reach a different conclusion-—although I must say I actually think what we learned during the inspection made Iraq a more dangerous place, potentially, than, in fact, we thought it was even before the war."

The report also states that there is “evidence of WMD-related program activities". Small test amounts of enriched uranium were found from a single illegal gas centrifuge. The report indicated that production of large quantities of mustard gas was approximately 3 to 6 months away from the time of the start of the war (March, 2003). It also states that EVERY senior Iraqi official under Saddam’s regime stated that Saddam was still pursuing WMD’s. It further states that Iraq used money from the Oil-for Food program to pay off France, China, Russia, and the U.N. Security council to look the other way so that these WMD programs could advance. It does state that Saddam abandoned his intentions to produce biological weapons in 1996 when the economy started to suffer but never abandoned his intentions to produce chemical weapons.

The Report states “Saddam never abandoned his intentions to resume a [Chemical Warfare] effort when sanctions where lifted and conditions were judged favorable: Saddam and many Iraqis regarded CW as a proven weapon against an enemy's superior numerical strength, a weapon that had saved the nation at least once already - during the Iran-Iraq war - and contributed to deterring the Coalition in 1991 from advancing to Baghdad.”

DEMOCRATS - EXTREMELY DUMB OR EXTREMELY GULLIBLE?
Nearly all the prominent members of the House and Senate were very vocal about their support for military action against Iraq – both republicans and democrats. Consider the quotes listed below. The fact that some were pre-Bush presidency indicates that congress saw the threat of Iraq before Bush even had the chance to “lie” to them. What changed from the late 1990’s to March, 2003 in terms of our belief that Iraq had WMD’s? The answer is absolutely nothing! Yet, Bush is bashed for his “lying” about WMD’s because he continues down the same path that the Democrats started under Clinton. Unbelievable! The difference now is that Bush had the fortitude to actually commit to the military action that everyone was demanding. What we have discovered has become a possible embarrassment so now everybody is looking to blame someone – namely Bush.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction." Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton. (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

It remains overwhelmingly clear that high ranking officials on both sides of the aisle earnestly believed that Iraq had WMD’s. Would these people actually put so much stock in to what a Republican president would tell them that they would make such bold statements without seeing the evidence themselves? It would be ridiculous to think that! No, the high ranking Democrats were armed with the same information as President Bush and as President Clinton before him, otherwise, how could they deduce such absolute certainties. And, as evidenced by the dates of the above quotes, it was THEY who started selling this war to the American People long before W even started campaigning for office, but Bush-bashers seem to overlook that little fact.

WAS THERE OR WASN’T THERE URANIUM IN IRAQ?
Now that we’ve established that everybody was on board with the WMD’s claim prior to the start of the war, let’s examine the evidence to see if there actually were WMD’s in Iraq. Much of the criticism of the President stems from his reliance upon the CIA report that indicated that Iraqi officials met with Niger to broker a Uranium deal – this was claimed by both the British and the U.S. intelligence agencies and the British never recanted on this assertion even though they were facing intense political pressure to do so. This report of Saddam sending officials to Niger is either true or false, correct? If this report is true, then it legitimizes everything that Bush has asserted about Saddam and his quest for uranium, agreed? If this report is false, it doesn’t necessarily rule out that Saddam had a hunger for uranium. What if Iraq obtained uranium through other avenues? This is a possibility, correct? Well, guess what? Uranium WAS found in Iraq in Tuwaitha. What is so ironic is the fact that this was rarely mentioned in the press other than to portray the U.S. as breaking international law for removing it without approval from the IAEA. The discovery of yellow-cake uranium was barely news but the U.S. not informing the IAEA was more important news. (Remember that the CIA's assertion that Iraq was seeking yellow cake uranium from Niger is the subject of much debate - I don't there is any debate - Saddam had it all along).
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... nium_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-07-07-iraq-uranium_x.htm)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 872201.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3872201.stm)

How about the discovery of nerve gas.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 861197.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3861197.stm)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,123680,00.html
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... p?ID=13835 (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13835)

The Senate Intelligence Committee Report on Pre-War intelligence concerning Iraq also has the following paragraph on page 45:
The former ambassador also told Committee staff that he was the source of a Washington Post article…which said, "among the Envoy's conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because 'the dates were wrong and the names were wrong.'" Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the "dates were wrong and the names were wrong" when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports. The former ambassador said he may have “misspoken” when he said the documents were forged.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422 ... 1/sec2.pdf (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/13jul20041400/www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/s108-301/sec2.pdf)

Conclusion 13 (page 73)
The report on the former ambassador's trip to Niger, disseminated in March 2002, did not change any analysts' assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports on the uranium deal, but State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) analysts believed that the report supported their assessment that Niger was unlikely to be wiling or able to sell uranium to Iraq.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422 ... 1/sec2.pdf (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/13jul20041400/www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/s108-301/sec2.pdf)

SADDAM AND OSAMA
Another important assertion that Bush made prior to the war with Iraq is that Iraq and Saddam’s regime had connections to al Qaeda and other terrorists. Please note that Bush never said that Saddam or Iraq caused 9-11 but only that they were linked to terrorist groups that have caused death to U.S. citizens. Read the following graphic that the New York times printed as part of a retraction to a story where it stated that the 9-11 Commission found that Iraq did not aid in the 9-11 attacks……Bush never said that they did – he has always maintained that Iraq was NOT involved in 9-11 but that they DO have ties to al Qaeda.
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/ ... APHIC.html (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/06/20/weekinreview/20040620_QUOTES2_GRAPHIC.html)

This article from the BBC quotes Bush directly in 2003 saying "We have no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the 11 September attacks."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3118262.stm

This article from The Guardian indicates that CIA agents in 1999 have documented meetings of Iraq with al Qaeda.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 00,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,314700,00.html)

How about the 1998 Justice Department indictment under President Clinton for Osama Bin Laden, which stated: ". . . al-Qa'eda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al-Qa'eda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al-Qa'eda would work co-operatively with the Government of Iraq."

What about the report from former CIA director George Tenet, a Clinton appointee that states "We have solid reporting of senior level contacts between Iraq and Al Qa'eda going back a decade. Credible information indicates that Iraq and Al Qa'eda have discussed safe haven and reciprocal non-aggression. We have credible reporting that Al Qa'eda leaders sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire WMD capabilities. Iraq has provided training to Al Qa'eda members in the areas of poisons and gases and making conventional bombs."

British journalist Melanie Phillips pulls it all together here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main ... wstop.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/06/20/do2001.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/20/ixnewstop.html)

Please note that the NY Times, BBC, and The Guardian are not neo-con think tanks.

Finally, "Were there contacts between Al Qaeda and Iraq? Yes . . . no question. The vice president is saying, I think, that there were connections . . . we don't disagree with that" Democrat Lee Hamilton, vice chairman of the 9-11 Commission.

Russia’s Putin even warned the U.S that Iraq was preparing terrorist attacks in the U.S. Couldn’t a person logically conclude that Iraq was a threat based on this information?

"After Sept. 11, 2001, and before the start of the military operation in Iraq, the Russian special services, the intelligence service, received information that officials from Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist attacks in the United States and outside it against the U.S. military and other interests,"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Jun18.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53096-2004Jun18.html)

Former President Clinton has supported Bush throughout the entire ordeal. He certainly knows the intelligence information which Bush had because he was in the same position a few short years earlier. He and his administration vehemently believed that Iraq posed a threat and that Iraq had specific ties with al Qaeda and Bin Laden. Commenting on WMD’s and Bush’s actions, Clinton said the following “You couldn't responsibly ignore the possibility that a tyrant had these stocks."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinto ... index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/index.html)

The Senate Intelligence Committee Report on Pre-War intelligence concerning Iraq certainly backs any, every, and all claims Bush or his administrations has ever promoted with regards to Iraq having ties to terrorism. The link below is to Chapter 12 Iraq’s Links to Terrorism.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422 ... /sec12.pdf (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/13jul20041400/www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/s108-301/sec12.pdf)

Hillary Clinton has said that the intelligence in regards to Iraq has been consistent for over a decade and that’s why she supported Bush.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/regiona ... 5434c.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/regional/story/370813p-315434c.html)

Below are some video links of prominent Democrats bolstering the claims that Iraq had WMD’s and links with terrorist organizations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87cZ3Og6ts&eurl=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_CepS8u9wQ&eurl=

COLIN POWELL
People often look to Colin Powell’s disappointment and displeasure with his own remarks to the U.N. as “proof” that Bush lied and deceived. Never has Powell blamed Bush for anything. Quite the contrary. As recent as September 8, 2005, Powell said this "I'm always a reluctant warrior. And I don't resent the term, I admire the term, but when the president decided that it was not tolerable for this regime to remain in violation of all these U.N. resolutions, I'm right there with him with the use of force.” Powell’s malcontent and shame from that speech he gave to the U.N. is not with Bush or his administration, it is with the failure of our intelligence agents "George Tenet did not sit there for five days with me misleading me. He believed what he was giving to me was accurate. … The intelligence system did not work well. There were some people in the intelligence community who knew at that time that some of these sources were not good, and shouldn't be relied upon, and they didn't speak up. That devastated me."….” But I'm glad that Saddam Hussein is gone. I'm glad that that regime is gone."
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Politics/sto ... 979&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Politics/story?id=1105979&page=1)

Also, as stated previously, the Downing Street memo mentions talks with Colin Powell. If the memo is 100% truth, which I doubt it is, then there is every reason to believe that Powell knew as much as anybody about WMD’s and al Qaeda ties

IN CONCLUSION
The above information accurately portrays the intelligence available prior to the start of the Iraq war. The notion that Bush “lied” to start a war is simply not supported by the evidence. I only ask that you read the above information with an open mind and perhaps try to recreate the events in your mind of Post 9-11 and pre-Iraq war to determine if you can see how a rational and logical person can come to the conclusion that Iraq either possessed or was pursuing WMD’s, that Iraq did have ties to al Qaeda, and that Iraq could logically be seen as an imminent threat.

Thank You for reading this.

T.D.C.Dad
08-29-2006, 03:30 PM
Very Impressive post RP. :)

MG_Grievous
08-29-2006, 03:39 PM
Is all of that your own work?

If so, would you mind doing something for me? :lol:

wrestlefan19
08-29-2006, 03:40 PM
waaaaaay too long for me to read

RP-in-Nebraska
08-29-2006, 03:48 PM
Is all of that your own work?

If so, would you mind doing something for me? :lol:

Yes, it is my own work.

No, I won't take your GED exam for you!

MG_Grievous
08-29-2006, 03:49 PM
[quote="MG_Grievous":c1927]Is all of that your own work?

If so, would you mind doing something for me? :lol:

Yes, it is my own work.

No, I won't take your GED exam for you![/quote:c1927]

:evil:

oldtimer
08-30-2006, 07:52 AM
[quote="RP-in-Nebraska":e3b66][quote="MG_Grievous":e3b66]Is all of that your own work?

If so, would you mind doing something for me? :lol:

Yes, it is my own work.

No, I won't take your GED exam for you![/quote:e3b66]

:evil:[/quote:e3b66]

MG.....I hope you wrestled better than this......you left yourself open big time!

T.D.C.Dad
08-30-2006, 09:59 AM
Didn't see these links on the Niger forgeries in your post RP

This link on why their has not been a investigation on the Niger forgeries.

http://thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHi ... 02705.html (http://thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/Comment/JoshMarshall/102705.html)

This link is on the forged document. Out of the American conservative :)
http://amconmag.com/2005/2005_11_07/feature.html

International Atomic Energy Agency also looked at the documents shortly after Bush spoke and pronounced them crude forgeries.

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/006162.php
http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/007051.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowcake_Forgery

the very first paragraph in wikipedia on the yellowcake forgeries.

The term Yellowcake Forgery refers to falsified classified documents initially "uncovered" by Italian intelligence which depicted an attempt by Iraq's Saddam Hussein regime to purchase yellowcake uranium from the country of Niger during the Iraq disarmament crisis.

On the basis of these documents and other indicators, the United States and United Kingdom governments asserted that Iraq had attempted to procure nuclear material for the purpose of creating "weapons of mass destruction", in defiance of United Nations sanctions.

This claim was one of the political justifications for the 2003 invasion of Iraq and led to considerable embarrassment when discredited.

Hardly the type of information you would use as a center piece for justification to attack another country. I will address more of what I believe to be fallacies in your post as I get time.

RP-in-Nebraska
08-30-2006, 10:33 AM
Hardly the type of information you would use as a center piece for justification to attack another country. I will address more of what I believe to be fallacies in your post as I get time.

Please tell me in exact terms, what fallacy did you just address and how did you prove me wrong? The Niger forgeries were not the only documents relied upon. Please read from your links again, there were legitimate official Niger documents from 1999 on which the U.S. based it's information. Apparently, the forgeries were an attempt by the French to embellish the Iraq yellow cake deal.

I can't tell you why there has not been an investigation on the Niger forgeries - I don't know. Considering yellow cake uranium was found in Iraq, it renders moot the need to investigate whether or not Saddam was seeking uranium. Isn't having uranium a bit worse than seeking uranium?

TDC Dad, please note that I DID state in my post that the Niger documents were forged but that the Senate Intelligence Committee found the information in the forged documents to be credible. The exact origins of the forgeries are unknown but the path to and from those forgeries travels through Italy and France.

MG_Grievous
08-30-2006, 03:30 PM
Logical Reasoning for the War in Iraq

Oil.

RP-in-Nebraska
08-30-2006, 03:36 PM
Logical Reasoning for the War in Iraq

Oil.

Possibly, but the evidence supports what Bush has been saying all along - pursuit of WMD's and ties to terrorists. And even if it was oil, then this would be in line with the programs initiated under President Carter.

MG_Grievous
08-30-2006, 03:37 PM
So I'm supposed to believe him? :?

RP-in-Nebraska
08-30-2006, 03:41 PM
So I'm supposed to believe him? :?

Either believe him blindly like the Democrats say they did (yeah, right) or do the research yourself to find out if he was telling the truth or not. My first post in this thread is a pretty good start.

MG_Grievous
08-30-2006, 03:43 PM
What if I don't want to do either, and just have my own opinion?

That's logical enough for me. :)

RP-in-Nebraska
08-30-2006, 03:48 PM
Okey Dokey.

MG_Grievous
08-30-2006, 03:50 PM
So oil it is.

T.D.C.Dad
08-30-2006, 04:27 PM
I'm with you MG. Oil :lol:

Denmom
08-30-2006, 09:50 PM
I think it was all so they could get those woman to quit wearing burkas (or however you spell it) so all the guys could see their faces.

Tom Araya
08-30-2006, 11:10 PM
What if I don't want to do either, and just have my own opinion?

That's logical enough for me. :)

Someone should get you an AM talk-radio show.

Tom Araya
08-30-2006, 11:11 PM
RP,

Sorry, I've been busy. I'll print your post out & pour over it this weekend & try to reply next week.

Your bud--Tom

legrider
08-31-2006, 07:33 AM
oo

legrider
08-31-2006, 07:35 AM
TOm,

If MG is going to have a talk show it will have to be on CBS and not FOX! Since it is going to be just opinions or lies, he will have to go with Rather. Nothing but the facts of FOX! :D Fox is a NO SPIN ZONE so I know MG won't like it!

By the way MG ready for whoopin again, again in Football? :lol:

Tom Araya
08-31-2006, 08:22 AM
TOm,

If MG is going to have a talk show it will have to be on CBS and not FOX! Since it is going to be just opinions or lies, he will have to go with Rather. Nothing but the facts of FOX! :D Fox is a NO SPIN ZONE so I know MG won't like it!

By the way MG ready for whoopin again, again in Football? :lol:

If you depend on FOX (or as I prefer, FAUX NEWS) as "fair & balanced," that explains a lot. . .

RP-in-Nebraska
08-31-2006, 12:58 PM
FYI, here is the latest in the Plame identity case. Apparently Richard Armitage (Deputy Secretary of State under Colin Powell) inadvertently mentioned that Plame was a CIA agent when speaking to Novak. Armitage is known as a gossip and a moderate who was very leary of the war. What is funny to me is that Armitage called Powell late at night the day the story broke because he was worried. The next day they went to the FBI and explained everything. I don't even understand why this had to go to a large-scale investigation.

MSNBC sums it up well:
Armitage's central role as the primary source on Plame is detailed for the first time in "Hubris," which recounts the leak case and the inside battles at the CIA and White House in the run-up to the war. The disclosures about Armitage, gleaned from interviews with colleagues, friends and lawyers directly involved in the case, underscore one of the ironies of the Plame investigation: that the initial leak, seized on by administration critics as evidence of how far the White House was willing to go to smear an opponent, came from a man who had no apparent intention of harming anyone.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14533384/site/newsweek/

MG_Grievous
08-31-2006, 04:48 PM
[quote="MG_Grievous":5a402]What if I don't want to do either, and just have my own opinion?

That's logical enough for me. :)

Someone should get you an AM talk-radio show.[/quote:5a402]


Funny you mention that.

Back in the day, I was asked to make an appearance on a cable/community access show. IMO, I thought it went quite well :lol: . But needless to say, I wasn't asked back. The dumbass should've known better. He knew how it would turn out.

Of course, getting half lit up before the show didn't help anything. :)






If MG is going to have a talk show it will have to be on CBS and not FOX! Since it is going to be just opinions or lies...


Hey!! :smt019

Tom Araya
08-31-2006, 08:40 PM
I'm with you MG. Oil :lol:

I've been thinking quite heavily on this matter for a few years. New thoughts are starting to emerge for me. Allow me a few days to wrap my head around the proper verbiage & I shall post some new ideas for why the administration acts in the way it does. I've been accumulating writings, speeches, interviews, books, publications, various documents, etc. for awhile & a pattern is emerging. Though oil plays a role, it has more to do with a certain vision of how the neocons want to refashion the world. It's taken me awhile to get inside how neocons think & why they think what they think, as it takes quite awhile to read all of their social theory publications, of which there are many. But again, it's going to take me a few days to write this dissertation & make it abbreviated enough so that it covers the argument without becoming overly wordy.

RP-in-Nebraska
09-01-2006, 11:06 AM
it has more to do with a certain vision of how the neocons want to refashion the world.

I think you may be on to something here, seriously, though I doubt your viewpoint will paint a pretty picture of conservatives. This administration has been adamantly vocal since 9-11 in their belief to rid the world of Islamic fascist terrorists and the countries who promote and protect them.

Tom Araya
09-01-2006, 12:57 PM
You're right, the neocons are not gonna look too good (at least from viewpoint). Of course, if you're a neocon or buy into their rhetoric and desire a world-view along their lines, they will look perfect. Just a different style of management, I guess.

I've been hand-writing drafts of what I'm trying to get to. It's so complex an issue that I hope I can do it justice. I'll throw a little morsel out now, though.

In 1972, Nixon returned from the Soviet Union with a nuclear disarmament treaty in hand. He said that this signaled "the end of the era of fear." I'm old enough to remember, in elementary school, the bomb drills where you had to hide under your desk, close your eyes so as not to be blinded by the flash & cover your ears so as not to be deafened by the explosion (and I'm sure those desks would have done a more than adequate job of preventing our complete disintegration :lol: ). That was the era of fear to which Nixon referred.

There were two men in Nixon's administration who were closely aligned with militarist industries and needed a further escalation of the Cold War to ensure continued profits. These men started a rumor that the Soviets possessed a secret nuclear weapon and that we must continue escalating the arms race. A 1973 CIA report called this "a complete fiction." This report went on to say that the USSR would collapse under its own weight in a decade or two if simply left alone (and they were proved right 16 years later).

The men in Nixon's administration countered by saying just because there's no evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist, we just can't find it (sound familiar?). When Nixon left office, these two men jockeyed for position in Ford's cabinet. One became Chief of Staff, the other Secretary of Defense. Today, these men are VP Dick Cheney and SecDef Don Rumsfeld.

Ford gave them carte blanche in the arms race, and they brought in an old friend named Paul Wolfowitz to help them (perhaps you've heard of him as well). You see, what they did then, and what they do now, is prey upon our collective fears. I've noticed that, just before an election cycle, yellow alerts will become orange, flights will suddenly be grounded and reported with alarming regularity in our media outlets--one can almost see the puppet strings being pulled.

Remember when we had leaders like FDR & JFK who stated that "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself?" I long for leadership who, instead of preying upon our fears, would instead work to alleviate those fears and state, as did FDR & JFK, that we could overcome them.

So (and this is just one tiny little piece of the argument which I plan to lay out) they need fear to continue to rule and to continue huge appropriations for defense contactrors. This is the business they are in and were in. They really having nothing to sell but fear. And while oil is assuredly part of their strategy (remember Bush's admonition to the Iraqi people "do not destroy oil wells?"), it is only a PART of why we're in Iraq. Iraq is an experiment where they hope to play out their ideology to prove to the world that it works. Much in the same way that FDR's New Deal reinvigorated the American economy, these men hope to prove that the New Deal was less about good policy and more about luck while at the same time showing that their policies are better models.

And what policies are these? Oligarchy, plain & simple. Much more to follow, stay tuned.

Tom Araya
09-03-2006, 04:56 PM
I wonder if anyone in the Bush administration has ever read this letter. Go to this link & click the PDF to read this short two-page letter.

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pag ... pageid=879 (http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=879)
(I especially like the last sentence of the letter.)

BTW, Churchill calls his 1921 partition creating Iraq "the biggest mistake of my career." Not sure why the U.S. wants/needs to keep this "mistake" intact.

RP-in-Nebraska
09-04-2006, 10:30 AM
No offense intended here, Tom, but I'm not too interested in theory or speculation. What I'm interested in is hearing the anti-Bush view of why they think Bush lied to go to war based on the facts that are now available and referencing what was given in January of 2003 for the reasons we decided to engage in the Iraq war. I don't think speculation or theories will present any type of argument to support the anti-Bush notion that Iraq wasn't seeking WMD's and that they do not have ties to alQaeda and other terrorists.

Tom Araya
09-04-2006, 11:19 AM
None taken, but it's not much of a stretch to see what the intent is once you've immersed yourself in the writings & speeches & actions of these men. Mostly, it is about profit (oil & defense contracts), but almost as important is their ideology. Think of it as an anti-FDR platform; in fact, why not let their mouthpiece state it for you:

"Roosevelt is DEAD! His policies may live on, but we’re in the process of doing something about that as well!" -- Rush Limbaugh

Iraq is their laboratory. They're on record as saying the Marshall Plan was a mistake. Their positions on things like Social Security is well-known. But at the end of the day, their ideology is oligarchy, which is all about the concentration of wealth & power in the hands of the fortunate few. So, Iraq really is, primarily, about profit.

I only offered a tease of what I'm going to try to enunciate; the above post was in no way intended as the entirety of what I plan to lay out. And I wonder aloud what you must think of the Churchill letter I posted.

Tom Araya
09-04-2006, 11:21 AM
By the way, RP, I recognize your endquote as a Jimmy Carter statement. And I recognize that Bush Sr. utilized this doctrine in support of Kuwait in 1991. But how does this quote make any sense in the context of what Junior started in 2003?

RP-in-Nebraska
09-04-2006, 11:52 AM
That "Carter Doctrine" certainly applied to Afghanistan. The argument is, apart from what Bush said in the January 2003 speech, were terrorists attempting to gain control over the region? and can the Carter doctrine be applied to Saddam's terroristic regime? How about the corrupt oil-for-food program and the recipients of large sums of money from that. Carter left his "doctrine" so open ended that it is open to debate. I don't know if Bush has ever brought up the "Carter Doctrine" as justification - if he has then I have never heard it, but I have read where a small number of people are using that argument. While it is a loose correlation, it is arguably applicable to the situation.

Tom Araya
09-04-2006, 12:56 PM
That "Carter Doctrine" certainly applied to Afghanistan. The argument is, apart from what Bush said in the January 2003 speech, were terrorists attempting to gain control over the region? and can the Carter doctrine be applied to Saddam's terroristic regime? How about the corrupt oil-for-food program and the recipients of large sums of money from that. Carter left his "doctrine" so open ended that it is open to debate. I don't know if Bush has ever brought up the "Carter Doctrine" as justification - if he has then I have never heard it, but I have read where a small number of people are using that argument. While it is a loose correlation, it is arguably applicable to the situation.

And I've supported the struggle in Afghanistan from the very beginning, and continue to support it now. It is only shamelful, IMO, that the administration has instead chose to focus an an area completely unrelated to what occurred on 9/11, leaving an undermanned, underfunded, underequipped force in Afghanistan to deal with the ever-increasing terrorists who should have & could have been wiped out or at least quarantined to the mountains in the north.