Iran - General Thoughts

[oldtimer]

Iran to hang six men publicly


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060730/wl_mideast_afp/iranunrestjusticearab;_ylt=AjzyWbHOb2SWnKmJC6_n1wQ UewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NTMzazIyBHNlYwMxNjk2

I not a big fan of Iran, but, they do know how to deal with bombers.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

They should....they ARE terrorist bombers themselves.

[oldtimer]

They should....they ARE terrorist bombers themselves.

We would probably hang them too,,,,,,after 4 or 5 years of court cases to determine what court should hear the case and then 3 years of court hearings and then the court battles to determine if hanging is human.

On 2nd thought, we probably won't be able to get it done.

[Tom Araya]

RP, do you consider it a "terrorist bombing" when civilians are killed by non-military personnel only? Do you consider civilian casualties caused by military personnel (regardless of nationality; this ain't a loaded question) simply "collateral damage?"

[eagle1]

this ain't a loaded question

Yes it is.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

RP, do you consider it a "terrorist bombing" when civilians are killed by non-military personnel only? Do you consider civilian casualties caused by military personnel (regardless of nationality; this ain't a loaded question) simply "collateral damage?"

Intentionally targeting civilians and other non-strategic, non-military sites for the sole purpose of killing people (civilians and military alike) in order to promote fear and terror and to disrupt normal operations. Primarily this would be performed by non-military personnel or guerilla combatants not associated with the official military of a sovereign nation. However, terrorism could be performed by the military of a sovereign nation such as Germany did with the Jewish people or the killing and pillaging John Kerry has admitted to performing while in Vietnam.

War is an unfortunate but sometimes necessary "evil". No normal, productive, and morally sound citizen or nation wants to kill innocent civilians for the purpose of killing innocent civilians. This is what draws the extremely important distinction between what Israel is doing and what Hezbollah is doing.

To address the "loaded" portion of your question (if it was a loaded question, but it's not), the bombing in Qana was sad and unfortunate. It's quite possible that Israel hit the wrong building and there is also a possibility that Israel hit the correct building from where missiles were launched. The odd thing, of course, that is being discussed about this is that all the victims were women and children. When asked where the men were, a reporter on CNN's Hardball with Chris Matthews indicated that a non-official Hezbollah militant stated they were all next door in a different building. Chances are, that was the building that Israel intended to target.

[NCMC4life]

I don't know how accurate is to say most terrorism is non-state sponsored. Terrorism from above accounts for a large portion of all terrorist activities, but they aren't labeled as that. The United States is not immune from practicing state-sponsored terrorism. From their long history of using incendiary weapons weapons against civilian populations, targeting civilian infrastructure, providing money, weapons and other forms of aid to prop up groups or puppet regimes practicing terrorism, our hands aren't clean either.

As far as drawing a distinction between what Israel and Hezbollah are doing, how is that done? Because despite saying one thing but having a long history of targeting civilian populations as well as receiving more US aid than any other country, it is obvious they have the moral high ground?

[fudge tunnel]

a couple of things to consider about Qana and Hezbollah:

-Isreal dropped leaflets and warned people to leave this area

-Hezbollah has a history of placing women and children in harms way for the negative publicity for their enemies.

-It's pretty easy to assume that Hezbollah forced these people to stay for this exact reason.

-How come there were no men in the building?

-To think that Israel intentionally targeted innocent civilians is brazenly insular.

-The Associated Press and others now report that the Israeli strike on Qana came between midnight and 1 a.m., but the building didn't collapse until 7 or 8 a.m., possibly as a result of munitions inside the building.

-When cameras got to the rubble - 8 hours after the bombing - many of the children were already in a state of rigor mortis. Hmmm.....how could THAT be?

-Hezbollah is by far the biggest terrorist threat in the world. They are much more organized and better funded than Al Queda.......and they are global. Within the last 3 years, over 300 Hezbollah members have been arrested in the US, including a General who came here across the Mexico border.

-By bringing this conflict into heavily populated suburban areas and virtually ensuring civilian deaths, Hezbollah has violated the Geneva Convention. But of course, those rules don't apply to them.......and the world community, the UN in particular, would never hold them to those. What a joke.

-One must remember, Hezbollah picked this fight w/ Israel. And Israel doesn't play politics when it comes to defending herself - like in the US. Now Hezbollah is now playing a pity party for the world, parading corpes around Qana, Tyre, etc. as their minions gnash and wail for the cameras....acting like they're being picked on by the big, bad Israel. And what's funny is.......a lot of small-minded people around the world are buying it. They're buying the vitriolic rhetoric coming out of Tehran. Hell, the Finnish president, who is the chair of the EU, won't even list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Baffling.

-It's disgusting how Hezbollah is celebrating the deaths of innocent civilians, and even more disgusting how Western journalists are galvanized by them.

[Tom Araya]

From what I've read, Israel is just as guilty as picking fights as Hezbollah. Hezbollah is certainly a terrorist organization & one not to be regarded lightly, but Israel certainly has innocent blood on its hands in many different situations. But everything else you've written, Fudge, is certainly food for thought.

Regarding thoughts on Iran (the original topic of this thread), here's something only reported in the Washington Post & LA Times. This is from Monday's Post:

"Bush Faces Bipartisan Complaint

A conservative Republican and a liberal Democrat have accused the Bush administration of misleading Congress by withholding key information about India when the House voted last week to support U.S. plans to sell nuclear technology to New Delhi. Administration officials knew at the time -- but did not tell lawmakers -- that it planned to sanction two Indian firms for selling missile parts to Iran.

News accounts of the incident did not sit well with Reps. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) and William D. Delahunt (D-Mass.), top members of the House International Relations subcommittee on oversight and investigations.

In a July 28 letter to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, the two expressed "grave concerns about testimony provided by Acting Assistant Secretary of State for Nonproliferation Frank Record at a July 20, 2005, hearing on U.S. Nonproliferation Strategies -- testimony that is, on its face, highly misleading if not intentionally deceptive."

The lawmakers said the subcommittee had asked Record about the tardiness of a report on weapons transfers to Iran. "In response to a specific question about whether the long-overdue report would name any Indian entities that made such transfers to Iran, Mr. Record replied 'I don't recall,' " the letter to Rice said. "Mr. Record also asserted that 'There is no ulterior motive in waiting or trying to hold that information back.' "

If true, it would appear that the Bush administration purposefully helped Iran get their hands missile parts. I wonder if this will be reported on FOX NEWS. . .

[fudge tunnel]

I wonder if this will be reported on FOX NEWS. . .

Actually, it was discussed on Fox News Sunday. I remember Juan Williams and Mort Kondracke talking about it, but don't remember what they said. I was trying to feed a screaming 4 week old........ :x

[T.D.C.Dad]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 519637.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/17/newsid_2519000/2519637.stm)

Found this while searching for info. on the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

[Tom Araya]

[quote="Tom Araya":51cf8] I wonder if this will be reported on FOX NEWS. . .

Actually, it was discussed on Fox News Sunday. I remember Juan Williams and Mort Kondracke talking about it, but don't remember what they said. I was trying to feed a screaming 4 week old........ :x[/quote:51cf8]

I'm fairly impressed! I wonder what they said. . .I've been out of the loop for a few days & am trying to get caught up on the happenings of the world since last Thursday. . .

Most importantly, though, if it is true that there are people in the Bush administration who are purposefully obfuscating such facts, aren't they de facto acting in a treasonous fashion? Shouldn't they, at the very least, be removed from positions of power?

[T.D.C.Dad]

He!! no it's all part of the master plan to keep America safe, thats top secret and not even congress can be told about.

Or Bush and his cronies are past incompetent !!

[NCMC4life]

Nor do the Geneva Conventions seem to apply to the US. Haven't the Geneva Conventions along with other international protocol largely become a joke in general? The United States hasn't even ratified the the two protocols presented in 1977 that deal directly with the issues as hand. It seems like something that can be brought up from various sides, but does not hold much weight when those crying wolf continue to commit violations themselves.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

A conservative Republican and a liberal Democrat have accused the Bush administration of misleading Congress by withholding key information about India when the House voted last week to support U.S. plans to sell nuclear technology to New Delhi. Administration officials knew at the time -- but did not tell lawmakers -- that it planned to sanction two Indian firms for selling missile parts to Iran.

If true, it would appear that the Bush administration purposefully helped Iran get their hands missile parts. I wonder if this will be reported on FOX NEWS. . .

First, this is the first I've heard of this so I don't have any background information. Second, I can't comment on whether this is illegal, morally wrong, or neither. Finally, it certainly seems that your first paragraph that I've quoted indicates that two companies in India sold missile parts to Iran and that the Bush administration planned to place sanctions on them for doing so. This is a far cry from Bush purposefully helping Iran get their hands on missile parts. Out of curiousity, I wonder what parts they sold Iran?

Oh, and yes, Fox does report these kinds of things.

[Tom Araya]

[quote="Tom Araya":37bc0]
A conservative Republican and a liberal Democrat have accused the Bush administration of misleading Congress by withholding key information about India when the House voted last week to support U.S. plans to sell nuclear technology to New Delhi. Administration officials knew at the time -- but did not tell lawmakers -- that it planned to sanction two Indian firms for selling missile parts to Iran.

If true, it would appear that the Bush administration purposefully helped Iran get their hands missile parts. I wonder if this will be reported on FOX NEWS. . .

First, this is the first I've heard of this so I don't have any background information. Second, I can't comment on whether this is illegal, morally wrong, or neither. Finally, it certainly seems that your first paragraph that I've quoted indicates that two companies in India sold missile parts to Iran and that the Bush administration planned to place sanctions on them for doing so. This is a far cry from Bush purposefully helping Iran get their hands on missile parts. Out of curiousity, I wonder what parts they sold Iran?

Oh, and yes, Fox does report these kinds of things.[/quote:37bc0]

I do watch Fox quite a bit, but I've been gone so didn't know if they reported it or not. In my experience, they typically either gloss over such stories or don't report on them at all. But they're not alone in this story; I only found two dailies that carried the story at all.

As for Shrub's role, it's this: his guy who serves under Rice told Congress he didn't know if the administration planned any sanctions against India, though the sanctions were reported the very next day after his testimony. It seems highly unlikely he wouldn't know----he's in charge of non-proliferation!!!!

It's one thing to sanction India for selling parts to Iran, but it's quite another to obscure facts to be able to continue to sell parts. I too wonder what these parts are, and more importantly, who manufactured them. I would hazard a guess that the CEO of this company, as well as its board of directors, are likely pretty big supporters of Shrub & his cast of characters.

[fowler]

I have to agree with Fudge on this one. As far a Hezbollah starting this new thing,,,,by now they shouldve figured out that if you start lobbing live ammo at Isreal, they are going to give some back. Dont kick the dog if you dont want to get bit.

[Denmom]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/denmom/23_11_621.gif

[fudge tunnel]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746081.html

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also gove the Venezuelan President some Iranian national prestigious honor for saying something along the lines of "The evil U.S. regime must be destroyed". (Not a direct quote.)

[oldtimer]

Nor do the Geneva Conventions seem to apply to the US. Haven't the Geneva Conventions along with other international protocol largely become a joke in general? The United States hasn't even ratified the the two protocols presented in 1977 that deal directly with the issues as hand. It seems like something that can be brought up from various sides, but does not hold much weight when those crying wolf continue to commit violations themselves.

The Geneva Convesntion doesn't apply to individual about of a terrorist group. Only Soldiers of countries and if that country sign the articles.

I think the 77 protocols would have required US service personnel to fall under the authority of another organization. I agree with not ratifing it.......we can't let our soldiers, etc. to lose they protection of the constitution.

[Denmom]

"Iran - General Thoughts"

Everyday I think - I am so happy to live in the "land of the free and the home of the brave!" And I bet they wish they were also.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

"Iran - General Thoughts"

And I bet they wish they were also.

I doubt it. They have been brainwashed to believe that they are living in the chosen land. Unlike here where people have the freedom of speech to criticize our nation, the government, the President, etc.

[oldtimer]

"Iran - General Thoughts"

And I bet they wish they were also.

I doubt it. They have been brainwashed to believe that they are living in the chosen land. Unlike here where people have the freedom of speech to criticize our nation, the government, the President, etc.

Exactly, if Tom and TDC Dad spoke over there like they do here.......something would get cut off.

[fudge tunnel]

Actually, a large majority of Iran's citizens are under the age of 30, and have a desire for an open-government, Westernd friendly free-market economy. My admin asst. is from Iran, and I hear this everday from her.

[Tom Araya]

And that's one thing I really appreciate about being an American & it's why I'm so vocal when I see someone in our country ready & willing to trade any amount of personal freedom for some perceived safety. As someone once said, anyone willing to trade freedom for safety deserves neither.

[oldtimer]

Actually, a large majority of Iran's citizens are under the age of 30, and have a desire for an open-government, Westernd friendly free-market economy. My admin asst. is from Iran, and I hear this everday from her.

I was in college during the Iran Hostage time and we had many Iranian students in our program. They basically said the same thing, but, the radicals are have total control.

Question: Does Mrs Tunnel know about the Asst.?