Winnetonka Invitational

[Glenn Rosario]

I'm putting the tournament booklet together this week. Thought I might share this with everyone. Here are the State Placewinners from last years invitational. Keep in mind it covers both Class 3 and 4.

2005
Tyler Grayson :D Winnetonka 1st
Greg Benenati Ft. Zumwalt W. 1st
Scott O’Donnell Oak Park 1st
Michael Gagliano Ft. Zumwalt W. 1st
Shane Nay Oak Park 1st
Zack Bailey Oak Park 1st
Justin Wolfrum Ft. Zumwalt W. 1st
Deron Winn Liberty 1st
Louis Caputo Blue Springs 1st
Dom Bradley Blue Springs 1st
Jaron Baston Blue Springs 1st
Ryan Moyer Park Hill 1st
Corey Carr Park Hill 1st
Eric Graham Park Hill 1st
Brian Graham Park Hill 1st
Kendall Burke Ray-Pec 1st
Sean Miller Park Hill 1st
Mark Ellis Ray-Pec 1st
Jacob Nay Oak Park 2nd
James VanZant Liberty 2nd
Trent Wilczek Liberty 2nd
Brandon Wiest Ft. Zumwalt W. 2nd
Cameron Harms Blue Springs 2nd
Ryan Cauley Ft. Zumwalt W. 2nd
Matt Cauley Ft. Zumwalt W. 2nd
Asa Shaffer Ray-Pec 2nd
William Forrest Ray-Pec 2nd
Robbie Hicklin Park Hill 2nd
Kyle Rose Park Hill 2nd
Miles Bolin Ft. Zumwalt W. 3rd
Dylan Joiner Oak Park 3rd
Jeff Streibig Lindbergh 3rd
Brent Hayes Oak Park 3rd
James Evans Oak Park 3rd
Matt Breit Ray-Pec 3rd
Justin Jenkins :D Winnetonka 4th
Brycen Neaveill Blue Springs 4th
Sammy Agrusa Blue Springs 4th
TJ Schieber Blue Springs 4th
Jeff Bowman Blue Springs 4th
Matt Groepel Ray-Pec 4th
Jeremy Seitzinger Ray-Pec 4th
Ian Gossett Liberty 5th
Andrew Brennan St. Joe Central 5th
Bret Marshall Liberty 5th
Matt Koelling Oak Park 5th
Troy Parks Liberty 5th
Dusty Gleason Oak Park 6th
Levi Thompson Ray-Pec 6th

Not to mention the many State Qualifiers that we had as well. As we like to say... 10 teams and no place to hide!

[rapidfire]

The Winnetonka tournament is clearly tougher than 4A state, and the best tournament in Missouri.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

The Winnetonka tournament is clearly tougher than 4A state, and the best tournament in Missouri.

This is your subjective opinion. An objective anlysis on all of the year's tournaments from last year was done by Oxman and based on his objective formula, I believe Winnetonka tourney was ranked 4th, behind 4A state, 3A state, and Lee's Summit tournaments. Regardless, there is no denying that it is a great event.

[oxman]

RP---Although I TRIED to do an objective ranking, it was no better than rapidfire's subjective opinion.....
I ranked them based on last year's State points......
Two main flaws in my ranking were:
(1)It was LAST year's State results....THIS year, Winnetonka looks even tougher than last year.
(2)Only 20% of Varsity starters score ANY points at State.
Soooo......My ranking was based on only the Top 20%...Completely excluding what the other 80% added to a tournament.

In my OPINION, it is very difficult for a 10-team tournament to compete with a 60-team tournament like State.
8)

[MG_Grievous]

Wow. That's quite a list.

[rooster]

Come on ox. 60 team tournament? There are 4 classes. Winnetonka is one tough son of a gun.

[Bob Pollock]

[MartyAz]

Mr. Pollack, you should come down from your perch once in a while. I looked (above) and found no one claiming that the Winnetonka Tournament was "tougher" than the LSX. I think the reference that tripped your trigger was that it's "one tough son of a gun"? Regardless of what your numbers and complications, I mean, compilations tell you, it is. Initial reference was made to the names of the great young wrestlers who participated in this Tournament last year, and to incite our imagination wander to - how tough the competition will be this year. Let it be what it is, why don't you? By the way, my dad’s bigger than your dad.

If you know what I mean …

[oxman]

Come on ox. 60 team tournament? There are 4 classes. Winnetonka is one tough son of a gun.You're right....I should have said 50+ team tournament....
I think Lee's Summit, Winnetonka, Oakville, Raytown South, Park Hill, Missouri Duals, Saint Charles West, etc.....
Could be considered tougher than the Class 1 or Class 2 State Tournaments depending on the year......
I just think it is hard for a 4-team tournament to compete with a 12-team tournament, for example....
Three times as many teams is difficult to overcome, although possible....
It is certainly possible.....But rare.......for a 10-team tournament to be more difficult than a 50+ team tournament....
I guess it also depends on what exactly a person means by "more difficult".
I do NOT think that the Winnetonka Tournament was tougher than the Class 4 State Tournament in 2004-2005.
I DO think that it COULD be tougher this year(2005-2006)....Who knows...??

Bob Pollock----Lee's Summit Tournament having twice+ as many teams as Winnetonka makes it hard(not impossible) to beat....I agree with you.....

It is like discussing who is the best major league baseball player....
There are many statistical tools to use....
You could rank them by batting average, on-base percentage, slugging percentage, Total average, OPS, RBIs, Homeruns, Homeruns per at bat, average with runners in scoring position, etc., etc......Oh yeah...What about defense.....?
Each list is totally different, but all are used to rank players......
Same is true when trying to rank tournies in wrestling.....
There are many things to consider.....It depends on what exactly you want to rank....
They all simply rank SOMETHING.......
But, which ranking you wish to use, is more of a philosophical question.....

It seems that rapidfire thinks Winnetonka is the toughest tourney in the State...
It seems that Bob thinks Lee's Summit is tougher than Winnetonka.....
It is just MY opinion that neither is tougher than the Class 4 or Class 3 State Tournaments.
Who knows who is correct??...It is just our opinions..... :)
By the way...My good friend Fudge Tunnel is BIGGER than both of your Dads...
8)

[fudge tunnel]

Ox - take it easy on us class 1 schools.....we try hard. 8)

[RP-in-Nebraska]

It's very hard for a 10 team or 24 team tournament to be harder than the 54? team state tournament. ALL of the varsity wrestlers "qualify" to wrestle at a varsity tournament. Only 29.6% (16/54) of the varsity wrestlers even qualify for state. This collectively weeds out 70.4% of the wrestlers. Add in the top wrestlers from the other 46 schools and this makes it a very tough tournament (I realize that Ray-Pec and Park Hill are in class 3, but they are not collectively good enough to replace the best two wrestlers from the remaining 46 schools in class 4). The only truly equivalent tournament to 4A state would be a 16 team tournament in which EVERY wrestler from EVERY team was a state qualifier. At least that is what makes sense to me - anything else would be unpossible. 8)

[howellfan]

Are you trying to refer to the IL state tournament? They have an indivual state-like Missouri-and they also have a team state tournament, where the team qualifies for state.

[rooster]

ox. Should of known better than to challenge your stats. Too many beverages watching football. 60 teams in each class is about right.

[Bob Pollock]

[fudge tunnel]

I like LSX more.......it's closer to my house.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Are you trying to refer to the IL state tournament?

I was referring to a purely hypothetical tournament which will never exist.

[fudge tunnel]

- anything else would be unpossible. 8)

"Me fail English? That's unpossible"

[Glenn Rosario]

We do not claim to be THE toughest tournament. It's just very condensed,with no place to hide. To have two five man pools with several State placewinners in each leaves little room for a soft match. Each year we have State qualifiers and place winners that cannot medal in our tournament. Twenty three years ago I had a friend that took fifth in the Rock Bridge Tournament but won the 4a State Championship that same season. We need tournaments like Lee's Summit and Winnetonka tournaments to set our standards high. What makes the Lee's Summit tournament special is that it gives our kids an opportunity to test themselves against State Champions from Oklahoma, Iowa, and Kansas. That in itself makes that a great tournament.

Our mission at Winnetonka was to keep the traditions alive that were started by Mel Weiland and later by Don Gianola and Hank Reese. In addition , we hoped to make it the premier event for the best in Missouri.
It's just a torch folks... that will be eventually passed on (No time soon though). Remember... 35 years ago when the Winnetonka Invitational began it was the Ritenour Tournament that everyone looked at in Missouri and the Granite City Tournament that State place winners could not place in.


One other note/ food for thought... The Big XII only has 5 teams. Anyone want to argue that the Pac 10 or EWL is tougher? They are bigger.

[RP-in-Nebraska]

Fudge,

I don't even know where that saying originated but I've seen you and Ox use it so I gave props and followed it up with the patented Ox 8)

[RP-in-Nebraska]

One other note/ food for thought... The Big XII only has 5 teams. Anyone want to argue that the Pac 10 or EWL is tougher? They are bigger.

You are misunderstanding my point. My logic is this, it would be harder to win a tournament with the 5 schools from the Big 12 combined with the 10 schools from the Pac Ten than it would be to win the tournament with the 5 Big 12 schools alone.

If somebody was to figure out a weighted average for the Tonka, LSX, and class 3 and class 4 state tourney on a per wrestler basis, it might rank higher.

[Louden]

Something that is not being discussed is the mental challenge that the State Tournament brings. Sure some kids place high all year in these tough tourney's, but then when State comes it's a different thing all together. Then you will have guys that place lower all year but then really shine when the heat is on.

All of these other "tough" tourney's are really nothing more than practice for the big show. Even if one of these tournaments looks stronger on paper, you aren't considering the mental challenge that State brings, which is on a whole different level to most kids than the Winnetonka Invitational, the Lee's Summit Tourney, the Oakville Duals, etc.

[rapidfire]

When you have 17 of 28 finalists from 4A state with an additional 12 finalists from 3A you have an extremely tough tournament. Plus, when Oak Park places 6th it's not your average tournament.

The argument could go on forever in regards to which is the toughest tournament. The reality is they are both extremely difficult to win, even for the exceptional wrestler, while they are certainly 2 different tournament.

[oxman]

Something that is not being discussed is the mental challenge that the State Tournament brings..Probably the best point made so far.

Remember... 35 years ago when the Winnetonka Invitational began it was the Ritenour Tournament that everyone looked at in Missouri and the Granite City Tournament that State place winners could not place in.Glenn, I remember the prestige that Ritenour and Granite City Tournaments had. I wrestled in both in high school and the teams I coached wrested in both for 25 years. I, 100% agree with you, that extremely tough tournaments are needed to push the level of wrestling in Missouiri. SOME of the best are Winnetonka, Lee's Summit, Raytown South, Oakville........

The FORMAT of the Winnetonka and Oakville Tournaments make them exceptionally grueling. Again, you can rank teams and tournaments using several completely different concepts. It really depends on what your definition of a "tough" tournament is

You are misunderstanding my point. My logic is this, it would be harder to win a tournament with the 5 schools from the Big 12 combined with the 10 schools from the Pac Ten than it would be to win the tournament with the 5 Big 12 schools alone.Now, you are thinking like a math major....:)
If A and B are positive quantities, then A+B>A.....
That is essentially my view point, too.
8)

[MartyAz]

I thought my original post was entertaining, at best. I didn’t think it was even close to being good enough to get much of a rise out of anyone. I apologize if you found what I said offensive. It wasn't intended as such. Maybe my words were a little too sharp-edged? I am actually a pretty nice guy. Just ask my Mother. I am a fan of wrestlers and wrestling, just like you, and all the rest of us morons ... excuse me, fans who enjoy this Site. It's not about us anyway. It's about the wrestlers who work so hard just to have their arm raised. Including your son! I followed his matches and rooted for him, until he came up against a wrestler from Winnetonka. So you can lighten-up and take a deep breath, I’m not fazed by what you said about me in the least. I actually got a good laugh out of it. A long time ago I promised (my Lord) I would reform and be a good citizen. You really have allot to add to this Site and do stellar work with all the wrestling factoids you develop. Amazing stuff, and I enjoy it. I would look forward to meeting and discussing this with you, on gentlemanly terms of course. By the way, I agree with the Oxman, “Who knows who is correct??...It is just our opinions....." Regardless of what tournament they wrestle in, wrestlers know almost any match can turn into a knock-down-drag-out-snot-bubbling "war". They know this, just like I knew it and still went out there and laid it all on the line. Keep up the good work, you and your statistician. I'll read your stuff. I'll just have to be more careful and try not to offend.

If you know what I mean …